Dorothy Donegan

S = Standifer
D = Dorothy Donegan

S You know, when you said Pearl Bailey, what was it about Pearl Bailey?
D Well, she's doing five versions of "Steppin Fetchin".

S My goodness.
D Is that about right?

S Well,
D Well, you can delete it.

S No. I think if that's what you feel, we should keep that there. Why do you say that?
D Well, he was slow and lazy, you know, tired

S Well, do you feel that ­ how was it she was able to command such a figure(?). I assume that she commands...
D Well, white people like to see the stereotypical image of blacks, you know, in that role. They figure they're not thinking.

S Of course, I've also heard that "Steppin Fetchin" has done the same thing, put down the whites in the most ludicrous way and they've applauded for it, even though they've been put down. Maybe they don't understand.
D Well, they think that Negroes are crazy.

S Oh, I see. What about ­ you said something earlier that you think that Ube's wife killed him or something like that.
D I didn't say that his wife killed him. I said that that woman manager that went around with him.

S Oh.
D And she had him working at _____ three, going on one-nighters, well, an old man shouldn't do one nighters, and then she would be over protective and nobody could get to him.

S Did you know that was his wife.
D No. His wife went before him.

S Right.
D She was very protective. The white woman that had window up, you know, and he caught pneumonia.

S Because I talked to him on the night that I had talked to him in the morning. I talked to him on the 8th. He died on the 8th, and I talked to him that morning.
D Yes. No colored people could get in to see him, you know, and I guess the people who were around him will get all his royalties, you know.

S Count Basie.
D As what?

S Any comment?
D Well, he likes to play the horses and he's a very lucky man, I think. He didn't have to work as hard as we did. He had hit a note intermittently and he was lucky enough to find musicians who could accompany him.

S Freddie Green. Do you know him?
D Oh, Freddie Green. He beats _____ like a Swiss clock.

S Oh.
D Very good golfer, too. That's his left hand. Do you play piano?

S A little bit. Not well.
D Well then, I won't lose my job.

S No. No, not at all. Jack Benson?
D Jack Benson, oh, he's a clever musician. I think he ________. He has soul. He's talented. He had to move to Honolulu.

S Right.
D I guess it was that pressure.

S Sammy Davis, Jr.
D Sammy Davis? Well, he doesn't know whether he wants to be Jewish or Colored. One day he's Jewish, and the next day he's Colored.

S Do you think that he needs the Black community as much as the Black community needs him?
D Why, I think what he needs now is to get some rest and retire.

S Retire? He's a young man, yet, though.
D Well, you know, you can only have so many years in this business. You should make your money and get out. You can become over exposed.

S Dave Brubeck?
D Well, he's very lucky, you know. I don't know how much piano he plays. He's a millionaire while we're not.

S Have you played any of his stuff?
D I think I played "Take Five". He ___ become millionaires and there are so many starving Black musicians. We don't ever make as much as they do.

S You see, Chris was one of my students. His son, who was at the University of Michigan. Both sons, I think. But certainly Chris went to the University of Michigan School of Music. That's why he's there. Brubeck comes back practically every year.
D And gives a concert?

S Yes.
D And gets fabulous fees.

S Sometimes. But sometimes he does children's concerts. He's begun doing those things and writing the oratorios for the children.
D Oh, he is. He's now getting the money out of the children.

S Okay. Well, maybe he's at a point in his life he can afford to be generous to give. Maybe he's been taking for a long time.
D He's really taken. While these other musicians are playing more piano and getting a lot less.

S Ray Charles?
D Ray Charles? I think he's come out of the church and done well. He's got a lot of feelings. I like to hear him say, "America" da, da, da, da. I think I get a lot feeling from that particular version of "America".

S He's a beautiful man. You've probably never heard of Sippy Wallace.
D I've heard of Sippy Wallace, but I never met her.

S Kind of blues singer.
D Is she ____?

S She's very good. She's 80, well you saw her picture in the ___. She's about 86 now.
D Is she here?

S She's in Detroit. Her record "Sippy" was just nominated for a Grammy.
D Is she able to work?

S Oh, she's working. She sang at Carnegie Hall in November, a full house, standing room only. And she's like an Alberta Hunter at Renaissance.
D Oh, okay. She's as good as Alberta?

S Oh, as good. You see, she and Alberta hate each other just like you and Mary Louise go at each other.
D I didn't hate them. They hated me.

S I see.
D Well, I guess I could answer them back, you know. Hazel Scott, you know, will talk on every musician.

S But, did it ever get as bad you would go. Well, Sippy went to what is now called "The Cookery", which was the Old Cafe Society in the village to hear Alberta. Alberta completely ignored her. Sippy need not have been there, because Alberta just walked past the table and everything. Would that have happened with you and Mary Louise if you were in the same room?
D Well, I went to see Hazel Scott before she died.

S Did she know you were there?
D Oh, sure, how are you going to miss me?

S True. Did she come by and say hello?
D No, she did not speak. She went to her dressing room. She had come into Jimmy Weston's and she had said ­ she talked while I was on. So, I said, I wish you'd be quiet. When I went down to Cleo's where you were and you had your three people in there, I didn't make any noise. And she said, "oh, you just jealous of me Ścause a white man picked up", you know, Jimmy Weston. So I said "why am I jealous of you while you're still banging the piano. He didn't set you down." I said, "you had Adam Clayton Powell and couldn't keep him. So, she said, "well, there's enough for everybody." So, I said, "you've got enough for everybody."

S And that's when the fight began, huh?
D Yeah. Man, old Williams was pulling on me. She said, "I don't like what you played. You played too many runs." I said, "Well, some can and some can't. You don't play enough." So, she says, "You want to bet?" I said, "Yeah, I'll bet my house." So, then I said, "you know, I could have taken your job when I was 18." And she says, "No, you couldn't. I was going with Andy Kirk." I said, "but, you weren't going with Joe Glazier".

S That makes a difference. Ella Fitzgerald?
D Well, I remember working with Ella Fitzgerald when she was making $200 a week. And she had a very bad disposition. Well, she was jealous of me because I could change minks every day.

S You could do what?
D Change minks. And I was all dressed up. And she would say, "I don't give a damn if you don't never come in this Zanzibar." And I said, "I know."

S Can you think of a musician vocalist woman that's more of a musician than Ella?
D A vocalist?

S That's more of a musician.
D No. But I think she should retire. I do think that.

S Well, like they say, it's time for all of us to take that last bow, and maybe she's preparing for that.
D When I saved her from running into the air conditioning, because she was going to run into the air condition. So, I blocked it with my hand. Is she going blind?

S Who knows. She's having more difficulty seeing, yes.
D Well, I guess I'm a nice person.

S Well, true, but I wonder when it's time for you to take that last bow, will you?
D Yes, if I could catch the sweepstakes, I'll take it. Sometimes I think I feel like taking it now.

S Well, Ella hasn't won that sweepstakes either.
D Well, she wants to be a millionaire and I'm not. Her manager gets in prime bookings, and if they get $50 or $20,000 a night, they should be able to retire.

S What do you get per night?
D Oh, you may be in with the IRS. Laughter

S No, we're tax exempt, so we don't get involved with those folks. Can you afford you at Ann Arbor?
D Yeah, what do you give Billy Taylor?

S We don't pay Billy Taylor. He's on the Board.
D He's on the Board?

S Yes. He comes free.
D All the time?

S Well, when he comes for the Jesse Collection, but if he comes to the University of Michigan, he has to really come for, you know,
D Well, he gets about $5,000.

S I wouldn't doubt it.
D So, he's checking the University of Maryland.

S Could we get you down there for $1,000 and expenses? I mean for the Jesse Collection. You have to remember these organizations are part of the University and they have different budgets and sometimes no budget at all.
D Well, you get paid, don't you?

S Yeah. But I get a salary from the University. That's even different. Laughter
D Well, they've got all the professors donating, you see, and the students. Maybe you can take up an honorarium. The University of Michigan is very wealthy.

S It's so _____
D I'll take what Billy Taylor gets from the University. Maybe $1,000, and what would you want me to do for that?

S If I got you in there for $1,000? I'd want you to come and do what you want to do. You could either do an hour concert in the evening whereŠ Telephone rings

S I'm told.
D You're here to ____, well, you see, he's sick now.

S Didn't they counsel him and Sarah?
D And Sarah? And Ella should retire, too. And when my hands make too many mistakes, I'm going to stop.

S In about 3 or 4 weeks I'll be talking to Ella in Toronto. She's doing two weeks at the Royal, that big hotel in Toronto. The Royal Hotel, I think they call it. In that hotel it covers a whole block there.
D Where will she be there.

S In Toronto.
D March what?

S March 26th through April something, 1st and 2nd.
D Well, let me come up there.

S Well, she'll be doing quite a bit of things there, but anyway, I suspect Oscar Peterson will make a jump down there and anyone who is in Canada has a tendency to find Ella. Can you, have you jammed in that way?
D With Oscar Peterson?

S Well, let's say if you were performing in Chicago and then afterwards or before several of you get together and jam. Are you the personality who can do that? Some people aren't jammers, in other words.
D You know, I'm a tiger. Well, I guess so. What I do is while I'm here, I let guest entertainers come and entertain.

S But you don't take part?
D No. That's called giving away your talent. But, like I'll go to churches and they'll ask me to play, or else what I'll do is. I'm not for that jam session BS. You know, you should save your energy for your job.

S Okay. Now, tell me briefly, we're going to close this tape out in this way.
D Well, you've got 15 minutes.

S Okay. When you go back to California, are you going back for a vacation, are you going back to work, or
D Oh, I'll will go back for a vacation. I'm going to do a concert March 30 in Baltimore at the Inn Harbor. I'm looking for another pianist, Charles Covington.

S I see. And then you'll fly back to L.A. after that?
D Yes.

S Now, if we want you again, now, I want you to tell me, I don't take what you may ask for. I do know what we have in our budget for the Jesse Collection, because we have funds from the foundation that I told you.
D Well, where can you get funds from ____?

S When are you in this area again?
D Well, I'll be back here July 4th for Reverend Johnny Coleman. Della Reese is hiring me in the work of entertaining to help a black woman build a city in Chicago.

S I see. So you say you're set on a minimum of $5,000 you're asking for.
D Well, you can ask. Whether you get it or not. Of course, when you want $10,000 you ask for $5,000. And when you want $20 ask for $10.

S I see. Well, that's not just for you, though. That's for you and yourŠ
D Oh, yeah. You've got to bring your side man.

S But you pay them out of that $5,000?
D Yeah. I've got to be put up, and I've got to have the fare. You see, I'm not Jesus Christ. I can't walk the water(?)

S Well, I can tell you what we're going to do. The Jesse Collection will wait until you're in the area, but I will ask the University, or ask Eclipse Jazz to do as they did for Ray Charles or for any of these other people. And they will pay you what we can get you for.
D Then, what you can do is give me some exposure on PBS.

S That's even better, but see, they pay scale.
D I know, but the exposure. Some things you give away, you know. I did a show with Mary ____ once.

S On TV?
D No. Radio. Had a radio show.

S You look like you might have been a dancer. Did you?
D Well, I had the figure of one.

S But just neverŠ
D I tried to dance when I was a little girl. They said I was ______. But, I was built pretty good.

S You didn't answer my question what do you intend to do with the rest of your life?
D Well, I intend to get rich and richer.

S But if that sweepstake doesn't come through,
D Well, I'll just have to get richer and richer. I like to wear a lot of clothes, and I like to wear big diamonds.

S Are you saving your money?
D Some of it. Yes. Yes, I have to pay me.

S Well, me is worth it. You are worth it, so.
D I like going to a store, the woman will say, "that's silk." I say, "put it on me." Yes. I'm not as frugal as you are, though.

S Why do you save it?
D Well, I don't like to take much manure.

S True, but if you save it, you know what'll happen to it. You're two sons are going to fight over it when you're gone.
D Well, listen, who cares?

S You ought to care, especially
D But I spend it on me, though. One son doesn't need my money.

S So, you'd have to worry about the other one then.
D Well, I'm not going to worry about him too much, because he'll just take it and gamble it off at the race track.

S That's what I mean.
D After I'm dead, who cares about it?

S You're right.
D I'm good to me, because nobody is getting in the casket but me.

S Like last night, I went to view a body in a casket who was a record producer in Detroit, and I made the mistake of asking what was wrong with him. The guy said everything is wrong with you when you're dead. So, when you're dead, you're done.
D When you're dead, you're done.

S I see.
D Let the good times roll. Did you know Willy Green?

S I knew the name. I don't know him. You asked me on the phone about that.
D I don't think he did. He was with the Union.

S Oh, no. I definitely didn't know him.
D A lot of people get killed over there don't they.

S Oh, they don't mess around in Michigan.
D Or Cleveland.

S If I need something myself I know who to call.
D You mean you say you have nothing to worry about?

S Of course not. No one has under _____ ties. Everybody is Madison Avenue now, don't you know that?
D Well, I might prefer to think so. Do you know Sunny Stinson?

S Sunny Stit?
D Stinson.

S No.
D Well, most of these musicians wind up broke.

S I know. That's why you have never married a musician either.
D Well, I'll marry one who's got some money.

S Well, there are very few of them. I was talking to ___ ___. He said, "we never save our money. We live for today. We're musicians. Because we like to take care of our bodies, and we like to take care of those people around us."
D Well, I can't let people parasite off of me too much.

S That what I think. There should be a rule.
D I think if you associate with rich people you going to give away too much of your money. You see, most musicians like people that are underneath them so they can look down on them. I like to be around people that I can look up to.

S That's nice to hear. Very nice.
D And these women taking care of these men, that turns me off.

S Well, somebody has to take care of them
D Yeah, but you know, I don't need a pimp, you know. I need that like I need a sore finger.

S I see.
D Even a man who goes to school all of his life, I consider a pimp.

S Why?
D They don't work. Let a man get a job.

S Have you heard of or spoken to Willy Dixon, Donna Magee, Clark Terry?
D Clark Terry. Well his wife died didn't she?

S I don't know that. Jay McShan you mentioned.
D Jay O'______. He's a nice man. He tries to help me.

S I'm glad to hear that.
D Like, he'll recommend me _____. And there's another one. Wallace Davenport.

S Ah, yes.
D In Switzerland, he got me two jobs in Switzerland. I asked him if she was as good as _____ Wilson? And he said, "she'll wipe them out."

S You know, I think that's a good place to stop this tape. That "I think she will wipe them out!" Let me ask you. This is a terrible question. On your epitaph, what would you put on it? Now, think carefully.
D What would you like to see?

S Well, that's a very personal thing and maybe it's in poor taste to ask, but this is the first time. I'm asking a lot of things on this tape that I don't normally ask.
D Maybe I brought out the real you.

S Perhaps.
D Or you're just putting on airs.

S Not really, no, no.
D ?????

S No. Did I act pompous when I met you?
D You wanted me to help you carry your bag. Laughter

S Maybe that's why you told me, "hey, look, I don't have time for this bullshit. Go on and interview that other lady and then come back." Was that it? Laughter
D Yeah. That was it.

S I was wondering what it is that I had said that turned you off like that.
D Laughter

S Okay. One discovers one's faux pas and one regrets it and then one moves on, right? What would you like to have on your epitaph?
D Oh, I would like them to put on there "I'm wild, but I'm polished!"

S Would you repeat that again for us?
D I'm wild, but I'm polished!

S Ms. Dorothy Donegan at the Holiday Inn, Lakeshore Drive, 644 in Chicago in this day of our Lord on Friday evening at 8:25. Thank you, Ms. Donegan. It's been a terrific interview.
D And this is the best one that you've done.

S It is, really. And especially afterwards someone telling me that it is the best one that I've done. That's terrific. Goodnight.

END OF INTERVIEW.