William Duncan Allen
S = Standifer
A = W. D. Allen
S We're in Chicago, Illinois with Mr. William Duncan Allen and we're about to have a conversation regarding his life and his very full career as a musician, a concert pianist, and one of the most renowned accompanists of this Century. Mr. William Duncan Allen. I'm glad to have this opportunity to speak to you Mr. Allen.
A It's nice to be here Mr. Standifer.
S Good. Why don't we start with just tell me, how old are you?
A Well, I have to admit it because my friends are giving me an 85th birthday party in December.
S I should say this, you look mighty good for 85. Man, you do.
A I feel pretty good.
S Well that's good to know.
A I have no major complaints and the minor ones aren't worth talking about.
S You were born in Portland, Oregon I understand.
A Yes. Portland, Oregon. December 15, 1906.
S Did you attend elementary and junior high school there?
A I attended both schools there. I have in my memory book a picture of Fernwood Grammar School with the 8th graduating class, 8th term graduating class and all the teachers of the school in front of the school. And this past summer I visited my nephew who lives there with his family. He took me by the school, and now it's a mid-school, and it's enlarged. I was very happy to see it. And my Jefferson High School, from which I graduated, is now a school of fine arts.
S Did you study music when you were in elementary school?
A Yes, I studied music. I studied with private teacher and when I finished High School, our graduating class was the first class to have its commencement exercises in the public auditorium and I played the pipe organ that night and also I had written the class song, which was sung by the class. There were 257 in the class and there were 7 songs submitted. The other 6 were words to a musical already written and I wrote the music and words to mine were voted by 257 people.
S This was a competition among the students.
A Yes. Right.
S Now, how did you get to this point of writing music? You said you had private lessons, but did you also have instructions from your parents?
A Oh, yes. My mother, who was a Canadian, was an accomplished pianist and my father, although not musical, but his family was. His younger sister graduated from Fisk University in 1907.
S Boy, you found the early groups.
A And on her senior recital, a young man sang a group of solos named Roland Hayes.
S Oh, my goodness. I was talking with Mr. Todd Duncan who we'll talk about later on because I know that you were his accompanist and he pointed out that if he was ever intimated by any person at all it was Roland Hayes and once Ronald Hayes evidently in his audience when he gave a concert. Tell me something about what was your first impression of Roland Hayes.
A As I remember him, particularly when I was teaching at Fisk and he came back and sang in Riemond Auditorium and I was so impressed. Every opportunity I had to hear him I did and I'd go back and introduce myself and he said, "Please give my love to your Aunt Lillian." It was so singular, the night he passed, I was on route to England, I was visiting my Aunt Lillian in Petersburg, Virginia, I had gone to bed and I had a radio on and I heard this familiar voice. At the end, the announcer said "That was the voice of Roland Hayes who passed away this evening."
S Oh, my goodness.
A I was 78, I believe.
S Did you, well maybe we're getting a little ahead of ourselves. Let me ask you, after you graduated did you go to Fisk? Is that when you got to Fisk? After High School, did you go to Fisk then or did you get to Fisk later?
A No, no, no. I was supposed to have gone to Harvard or Yale. I had been accepted at both. My principal was a graduate of Yale and he wanted me to go to Yale, and I had 3 older cousins who were in the professional schools at Harvard -- Law, Medicine and Dentistry.
S No music?
A No music. And they wanted me to come and go to the New England Conservatory and take piano on the side, but take college, and my mother was going to come with me and go up to her home in Montreal, but she had taken ill that spring with diabetes. That was before insulin and she was one of 9, the middle one of 9, and she passed away on August the 9th of 1924. But that Spring, she had attended a recital by Clarence Cameron White and he told her about Overland and practically on her death bed she said, "I wish you wouldn't go so far. Why not go to Overland?" Not much nearer, but after she passed, my father insisted that I go to college. I didn't want to and he phoned Clarence Cameron White, and Mr. White arranged for me even though it was late to come to Overland.
S Were there many Black students at Overland than in most colleges?
A Oh, yes. Not the number of today but there must have been 2 or 3 dozens. Half of them in the Conservatory.
S Did they know that you were Black?
A Oh, yes, absolutely.
S Why, did you tell them?
A Oh, yes, I made no effort to pass, although my Black friends used to get after me because most of friends were musicians and most of them were White. But, no, I stayed in the home of Theodore Phillips' parents that Dr. White had arranged for me and I was roommate with his son, William, who was a senior in high school but taking Cello at the Conservatory. But he was such a, I should say, somewhat wild and I remember he was following the girls and running wild from Detroit to Cleveland. I'd come home and find shirts missing and saying, "I borrowed a couple of y our shirts, I hope you don't mind." And finally, his parents had to send for him in January to come to Charleston, West Virginia where he was, and I was so glad when he left.
S What did you major in when you went to Overland?
A Well, I actually was in college my first year and taking just piano in the Conservatory. Through Dr. White, I had who was supposed to be the leading piano teacher there, George Hastings. Theodore Phillips and Jesse Covington had graduated under him in 1924, just before I went there. But I didn't know that he was a sick man and on April 1st he passed away from cancer. So, for the remaining 6 or 8 weeks of the term I had his wife, Mrs. Hastings, for a while. She taught piano. Then I had Dr. Shaw who is the Dean of the Conservatory who had come in in 1924 as the Dean from some college in Iowa. He had brought with him 2 or 3 Overland graduates but who were in Iowa with him on the faculty, and finally when June came, he said to me, "William, I guess your teacher next year will be Mr. Breckinridge." He was a teacher who taught piano, organ and harp. I said, "No, Mr. Shaw, my next teacher -- if I have another teacher -- will be at some other school in Overland." And he kept me.
S Oh, I see. He didn't want to lose you.
A He kept me. And I graduated
S Did you do much accompanying while you were at Overland?
A Yes, he encouraged me. There was no course in accompanying then, but he encouraged me to accompany and any time I was going to accompany someone, he would always insist on my bringing the music to him. One of the people whom I accompanied was Floyd Debnam, who is Floyd Debnam Russo who lives in Los Angeles, California -- a member of NAM.
S Oh, currently. At this prison.. Also at Overland, did you hear very much about schools like Fisk University that you ultimately got to?
A Well, I knew about Fisk because my father was born in Nashville.
S Oh , I see.
A And so when the Fisk Jubilee Singers were there when they came to Portland, they stayed at my father's hotel, The Golden West Hotel, and Mr. and Mrs. Meyers would stay with us.
S Now, tell me. You mentioned that your father had a hotel Is this the profession that your parents were able to send you to school?
A My father never went to college. He used to go from Nashville up to Canada in the summertime to work on the railroads to support his sister Lillian who was a music student at Fisk and then he was on his way to California. He got to Vancouver, he was on his way to California to go in business, and he stopped in Portland and found they needed a hotel for men who worked on the railroads and for Black visitors. There was no place in Portland for them to stay. He established the Golden West Hotel in 1904 or 1903, and he married my mother in 1905, came to Portland and I was born a year later.
S Did the hotel do well financially?
A Oh, yes. Yes. They did well until the crash in 1929.
S Now you have a sister, Connie, I believe, right?
A Yes.
S Did the two of you work in the hotel as you were growing up?
A Oh no. Not at all. Not at all. We didn't live near the hotel, but we came and visited some time, but no, neither one of us worked in the hotel. I worked in the ice cream parlor when I was in High School.
S I see. Well, what about -- speaking of High School -- the music training that you had while you were in High School. You didn't talk much about that.
A It was very good. I chose Jefferson High School. For some reason, it was out of my district, but I was attracted to it. I always wanted to sing in the Glee Club so I planned to join the Glee Club as a Tenor. The first assembly they had on Monday -- they had assembly every Monday -- the accompanist was not there and the Superintendent of music in Portland, Charles Boyer, saw me in the front row and recognized me from Fernwood Grammar School and he said, "Fernwood, get up at the piano." And that ruined my chance to sing in the Glee Club because at the end, the accompanist of the Glee Club came and said, "We need you in the Glee Club. I'm having to leave, please come on Tuesday and I'll introduce you to George Wilbur Reed." And I played for the Glee Club for 4 years.
S Were you paid?
A No. Not paid.
S Well, how did you afford your lessons? Did you just figure this...
A Oh, my parent could afford them, and I took private lessons outside. Several teachers, but finally with the leading teacher in Portland, William Robinson Boone who was the organist at the First Church of Christ Zionist and the Big Jewish Synagogue. I was studying with him when I graduated and came to Overland.
S When you're talking about 1924 or '25, I don't think '25 the Novella "Porgy" came out. Were you familiar with the Dubois Novella at that time?
A No. No.
S And then, 1927 the play came out. Were you familiar with that?
A Yes, but I didn't know that.
S You didn't hear much about that at all. What were the things that you were hearing about that was going on in the country during the Œ20s? For example, at the Hall of Renaissance if you look back on now.
A The who?
S The Harlem Renaissance. Did you hear much about the artists?
A I really didn't. I didn't know anything about the East. I only knew about Fisk because of my father being born in Nashville and because his Jubilee singers there. But otherwise I knew very little.
S Oh, I see. Okay, so you had your head for those notes.
A Yeah. Right. Right. Because much to my detriment, because I was studying with a registered piano teacher privately, I was excused from High School in the afternoons. I didn't have to take the minor arts -- drawing-- and my handwriting is bad to this day and both my father and mother wrote beautifully.
S When did you first decide that you were going to do accompanying as a profession?
A Well, I think when I went to Overland I enjoyed accompanying on the side, but I didn't plan to be a professional accompanist really until I started teaching at Howard and after graduating from Overland in 1928, I went to Julliard for a year and, although I was offered a full scholarship by James Friskan, that was when the crash came and I had to get a job.
S So you left Julliard?
A I left Julliard, but I came occasionally for a piano lesson, but I left Julliard because my sister was at Overland getting ready to graduate, my brother was getting ready to come to college, so I had to get a job. And the reason I got a job at Howard University was that Roy Tibbs, head of the piano department, had been in Fisk with my Aunt Lillian. So he promised me a job at Howard University and when I started Howard in 1930, I was the youngest teacher there.
S Had Todd Duncan come there yet?
A No. Todd Duncan came the following year and in a way I'm responsible for Todd being there. He had applied and I was going up to New York every 2 or 3 weeks to take a lesson. Ms. Childers, head of the department, said "I wish you'd interview Mr. Duncan and tell me what you think of him." So we made arrangements to meet at the International House and I came back and I was impressed and so they sent for him to come down. And he was employed immediately.
S I see. Now, shortly after that as you know he took the role of Porgy in "Porgy & Bess." Did you know of this or did you hear about the major 35 production of Porgy & Bess?
A Oh, yes. Yes. I had heard about Paul Robson and who was the original one?
S Well the original Porgy was Todd, of course.
A Yes, but I'm talking about the drama.
S Oh, the play?
A The play. Paul Robson was one and
S I can't think of him
A I can't either. But I remember, it was Abby Mitchell who told George Gershwin about Todd. He said, "There's a professor singing at Howard University. You should send for him." So Gershwin called and asked Todd to come up and Todd came up and Gershwin said, "Well where's your accompanist?" And Todd said, "Well don't you play the piano?" So, Gershwin sat down and played for him and after that, said, "You're my Porgy. You're the person I've been looking for." And he came back to the University not at all sure that he wanted to go on a production of "Porgy & Bess" and leave his college job.
S Right. Did you know Abbie Mitchell?
A Oh, yes.
S She's Clara I believe in a....
A She was Clara...yes, and um, the reason I met Abbie Mitchell, two singers that I accompanied when I came to Harvard University, one was Abbie Mitchell who was singing on the Howard University series and uh, needed an accompanist and I was recommended. And I, attribute to her, uh, my being a good accompanist because she sang several languages, she had had fine accompanists, and she guided me. And then, the other soprano I accompanied was Lillian Avanti...
S Avanti, right.
A And uh, I accompanied her at the White House.
S You accompanied her as early as 1927 though, didn't you?
[break in tape]
S Now, you were talking about Lillian Avanti. Tell me something about what you, the work that you...
A ...well, Lillian Avanti was the divorced wife of Roy W. Tibbs. And, uh, she, her name was Lillian Evans and when she married Tibbs, she took the Evan and the T I of Tibbs, Avanti made an Italian name and she looked rather Italian; she went to Italy, sang successfully and then came back and of course at that time, was a Black woman, regardless of her color; she couldn't get into the Main Opera in the United States, but she did quite a few recitals and I don't know how I was recommended to her, but I played for her, oh, several recitals in the East including an appearance at the White House in, which Mrs. Roosevelt was having a luncheon for women and uh, she sang a half hour program.
S [can't understand Standifer's comment]
A Well, that was, the second night I accompanied the White House was Todd Duncan and the Howard University Glee Club.
S Right, and again uh the Roosevelts were still there.
A Right and I have in my apartment pictures, autographed pictures, of the Roosevelts, one of President Roosevelt, one of Eleanor Roosevelt and there's a seal, which says, the frame of this picture, the wood, was removed from the White House in 19 about 1917 and had been built around 1897.
S I think you and Todd Duncan uh, must have...
A We do...
S He has one...
A About two or three days after you appear, you receive these autographed photos by special messenger. He received a pair, he has some on his studio and I received a pair. And then later, when I played for Lillian Avanti, got a picture, for some reason or another just of President Roosevelt to William Duncan Allen and I sent it to my father. I am a Jr. so he took great pride...
S ...in his name on it...
S Well, you mentioned Jules Bledsoe earlier, now how did you know him?
S I see. And then Paul Robson...I know you had a long relationship with Paul Robson.
S Now this was when Porgy and Bess was playing at the Alvin Theatre in New York about 1936 or so?
S Right, but...
S So it was '36 when you were there?
S All right, then. Uh, now, for some reason, I just assumed that had accompanied Paul Robson; so you never quite...
S ...but you did meet him in '57 / '58?
S And then, at that time, did you accompany him...
S What do you think about Robson's politics? Do you think, well, what did you think of ______?
S ...should you mix music with politics?
S No he should not have? Or no...
S Um hum.
S But he never spoke...
S And this was a six month period that you were about, about the time that...
S That's interesting because, well, you mentioned earlier, for example, that you had heard his son speak I think on television...
S ...just recently?
S I see.
S Looking back on that time now, do you think, uh, many other Black musicians in particular, should have been more supportive of Robson?
S Basically...
S Now, when did you begin to work with Duncan, Todd Duncan?
S Did you perform at any White colleges as well?
S Were there any, in those days, with Todd Duncan or Paul Robson or any one else with whom you performed were there any calls from White colleges or White organizations for you to perform?
S Yes, yes...
S ...right. Did you know the President...no, it's not Chainey's, (sp?) what is the university outside of Philadelphia, that Chainey (sp?)
S Hill, okay.
S Did you go down your alphabet this time to remember...
S We should let the audience in or whoever is viewing this tape know that you, when you can't remember names...
S S ...Exactly. Do you recall that incident?
S Tell us something about that...what you remember.
S So, the union then, the union was very powerful.
S And do you recall whether any of the other cast members, did they support...
S Was this generally in the news or this was behind the scenes?
S Mr. Allen, do you recall the incident of the segregation, the segregation incident at National Theatre...
S This was about 1941...
S Now, I understand that that only happened just for those performances. After that, that's the National Theatre went back to a segregated house?
S And then, ultimately, I understand in the Œ50's they finally...
S How did being an accompanist, do you remember racial incidents that affected you. Sometimes being an accompanist or a celebrity, you're not touched by these things, but can you recall...
S ...private homes...
S So there was not a legal discrimination that was going on.
S They did this one their own.
S Did they fine the people...?
S I see.
S What about on the trains? When Mr. Duncan tells me he used to try to travel first class?
S So, the European and whether you were in Australia, or you were in Germany or whether you were...those, there were hardly any racial problems...
S So the homeland was where you had the most problems.
S Well,
S Well, why do you say that?
S S And of course you remember, I guess was it, was it national attention when, which wasn't that long ago, when she had to in the DAR refused of the possibility of singing at the concert in Constitution Hall was it not?
S Oh, you were?
S ...tell us...
S S [can't decipher name]
S That just goes to show you that from bad things come up S Have you spoken to Marion Anderson in the past? I understand that she's still living.
S Hm.
S Do you know her nephew James Duprice?
S Right, he also stays in Canada, doesn't he? Does he have venue in Canada as well, though?
S Oh, I see.
S Duprice has the Oregon Symphony.
S Okay. Let's get back to Mr. Duncan. Where did you actually start accompanying him.
S is this in the Œ30s?
S Yes. I have been to Fisk and I know that...
S And of course no one recognized you as being Black and asked you to move, huh?
S Had there been many incidences like that ... (skip in the tape)... Now I know that you started to accompany Mr. Duncan in the Œ30s, but was there a time when you stopped accompanying him while he was in Porgy & Bess and you started again later?
S So your home base then was in New York at that time.
S Well tell me, did Todd and his wife ever join you up in the...
S Oh, so you did get together.
S Oh, no. It's terrible. Now, was this before or after Todd Duncan performed in the Broadway musical, "Lost in the Stars"?
S Komolo was the leading character in .....?
S Gee, that's a long time. Within storms of course.
S Charles Johnson.
S At this time, was Duncan doing the "Lost in the Stars" by that time?
S I see. Did Mr. Duncan ever talk to you about his role in that South African play, because today we think this is a very critical time for South Africa in those days. Even the 1950s I believe. What was his ....
S Did you hear much about South Africa in the Œ50s?
S Yes, but they've come a long way.
S What do you think about... let's talk about Porgy & Bess a bit. There are some news critics, especially Black critics, and musicians such as yourself has said that Porgy & Bess is the most racist play that you can ever think about. Do you think it's racist?
S Do you know what Harlan Johnson said abut that, though, do you remember in the Opportunity magazine he said that anyone, let alone the White man, going down to a place for 4 weeks and thinks he can get an insight of the Black music is sort of ridiculous. Did you agree with that?
S Oh, you do?
S Why do you say that?
S Aaah. That's a good ploy about it. Do you think that Black composers really were jealous of the fact that Porgy & Bess was really produced by the libretto was by a White man, the music was by a White -- 2 White Jews from the North, and then the Smallens and Mamoulian and Alexander Steinard were all Russian type.
S No, he told me nothing about Georgette.
S Smallens? Or Steinard?
S Mamoulian. Yes.
S He never said anything about that. He mentioned the fact that she had been in Russia for many, many years and stayed there and then came back, but I didn't realize that particular thing happened.
S Well, this is very interesting you say that maybe Hal Johnson was a bit jealous, do you think...
S Do you think the writers, too, were a little bit jealous of the fact that here's a play-like of Porgy that was taken on for a libretto.
S Yes. That's just as well a reality ...
S What do you think about people like Cab Calloway? Some people -- Calloway said that that role of supporting ____ was really developed after his own life and history.
S Well, Avon Long was the second one.
S Red Buck and...
S Right. Did you ever see Bubbles perform?
S I understand he was just ...
S ...striking.
S Sportenlite(?).
S Exactly.
S Now, you weren't on the West Coast, but in 1938 they did Porgy & Bess out in Los Angeles.
S Right. And I was talking to Jester Harriston just two weeks ago and he said, "Jim, I was the undertaker in 1938 in the San Francisco production."
S And he said it wasn't a big part. And Jester now is about maybe oh,...
S But I asked him the same question I asked you about the stereotypes. Supposedly that was many Blacks were looked at in real life as being people who could sing and who were sort of a ___ ____ philosophy, etc., so, looking back at Porgy & Bess, I'm not sure there was always an opportunity. For example, most Black performers, especially the women artists now, have had a role in Porgy & Bess.
S So there must have been a vehicle as a starting point for a career.
S Can you name some of them?
S ...Leontine.
S But she doesn't talk about Porgy & Bess very much.
S Yes.
S In Russia...
S Exactly.
S She also did something in the movies out there because I read a letter from her to Dr. Jessie.
S She said she had gone to Hollywood and she ____ _____. I don't remember the name of the movie.
S Yes. UCLA or USC she did some concerts... and she answers in those letters I have because she talks about that and she said they were enormous successes.
S She was scratching it?
S So she let you know she knew what she wanted.
S I just finished reading about 5 letters from her that _____ just gave me and she talks about the time, and she does talk about an accompanist and she said but it was the most marvelous time of her life and she really thought very hard about going to the West Coast before she went out there.
S I know you think I keep coming back to Porgy & Bess but I'm interested in one other -- did you know any cast members besides Thigpen, and how many Bess' did you see perform. You said you saw Anne Brown perform, you Helen Thigpen perform, did you ever see Leontine in that role.
S ____ Warfield and Leontine got married in New York, right?
S Oh, you did. Adam Clayton Powell was supposed to...
S He didn't show up, did he?
S I read somewhere that he didn't show up, so someone else, her father or his father were there...
S But it wasn't his church.
S Did you hear anything about the other Moscow performance where _____ene Davis performed in Moscow. And supposedly Truman Copote wrote excerpts that he sent back to America. Do you remember reading or hearing anything about that?
S Because this was one of the things that
you read about now, because he wrote the muses of her and she talks about
it. And I understand that the people in the cast weren't very comfortable
with it. I noticed up here in Chicago there's something up in a theater
down the street here on Truman Copote called "Tru".
END OF TAPE #1 TAPE #2 S well how would you compare the different Bess's, lets say Ann, Hal land Pigpen and Leontine Price. That's three different basses at three different times. Buts lets do that on a different tape, okay?
S we're about coming to a close... I don't want to tire you out too much, this is interesting. You notice I forget that I'm your ...
S but to spite that ah one of the beautiful things that I used to tell my father about being older is that you have such a wealth of experience to share with someone oh is not so old...
S and you own the stock...that's what makes it...I mean it's one thing to go to a book and read this stuff...
S and I'm really having a better time, I just gave all these letters from different people, case with _____ Pigpen, John Bubbles, Avon Long, ah Leontine Price, there's some things on how very, very unhappy she was in the...
S Leontine Price...she's talking about how unhappy she was and that they were just giving her a hard time...
S right, I think that's why she was kind of distraught because they had a...she had a difficult time, I read ...went to another collection in Ohio, and I read some letters that she had writer to her management and she points out that this opera was just ruining her voice and she wanted out of this contract, and she said she'd by myself out of the contract...they finally let her out of the contract, but they were going to hold her to it and make her do the concert.
S but they've got to move on...
S well this is one of the things...I want to ask you about some of those...okay that's interesting...I'll be writing you and ask you some of these. I'm going to first; the first thing I want to find out is the name of this movie that Hal land of Pigpen was in Los Angeles,
S perhaps she finished the movie, that's when she ah she was the voice oh what a minuet I believe it was Pogrom Bess that's when, yes she was the voice for________ ________ I believe. In the film Porgy & Bess.
S was she?
S oh Marilyn Horn? Then Pigpen was someone else then.
S I remember she sang in the _______. They told her to come out there and she ah auditioned and then she ... she came up to audition for one role and she ended up taking another.
S okay...maybe she took the part of Maria or Clara...
S okay...Clara...
S okay maybe she did and in the movie she did that
S was it in the fifties that she had this concert to do?
S okay...it was about that time when they made...they were making a movie and preparing her for...
S okay that must be...I thought so...she started writing letters before she goes out. And then she got the advice from ________ to go ahead out and she got out there and continued to write letters and told how things were going on, and she pointed out that when she got out there the lady, ah one of the producers asked her to sing and the next thing is she just said word and they said enough, go away enough and she knew that she worked hard to get the props and she said this is the most incredible Bess, or Maria or Clara they ever heard and they just wanted her to take the job, we don't just want you for 3 weeks we want you until the movie is finished.
S and she said they paid her for the whole time and in between and so forth...
S it's all coming back to me now...gradually.
S well with the production of the film, Pogrom Bess, I know Hal lard Pigpen was in Los Angeles and this is when you were concentrating or accompanying her, ah Hal lard Pigpen played the role of Clara in Napa?
S and then...I was about to ask you to compare the Beth's that you heard, I know that Leontine dean Price did the Beth's and Brown you said you heard and Brown sings the Beth's...
S Edda Moa den...
S how would you describe each one of those as a Bess, let's say Leontine.
S do you think that Leontine was...let's put them in different categories in terms of an actor-singer or singer-actor.
S what about Edda Moa den?
S okay and what about Ann Brown.
S Ann Brown...
S I see...I paused simply because I'm just trying to reflect on...I've heard all three of these people on recordings and ironically, from what I've been able to read this is what I've learned too then. Leontine Price is definitely a singer-actress...
S and Edda Moa den was very sensuous and very much of an actress.
S her voice was not as great...
S now you were at Julliard now you must have been there around the time Ann Brown was at Julliard.
S Wheatley, now her husband is a musician ...
S I'm sorry... obviously his name came to my mind but you went to the alumni...
S here's another divagation, a few months ago you told me about Silvia Lee, one of our mutual acquaintances and a very fine accompanist, and that you went to dinner with her last night. Was it anything interesting that ah?
S where did you go to dinner last night?
S and he plays violin?
S you mean he had guards or something?
S are you serious...
S and they sent his car for you here.
S how nice...how very, very, nice and very interesting to know that Varicon of all people is about. I know it's getting about...rather late and I want to ask you one or two more questions, first of all were you married?
S and do you have...you say you have...your sister Connie, is she still living?
S so there were three of you?
S I would like you to leave us with this statement...again I'm going back to Pogrom Bess because there's re-examination of this opera because of some of the so called racial stereotypes that are in that program. How would you...if you were lecturing a group young black and white students and they asked you what do you think about this opera in term of the music and in terms of the characters, how would, what would you tell them about it? Especially knowing they feel that its...there's stereotypes in there?
S did you know that Grace Bombe thought a long time before she took the role, really for those very reasons...she said you know maybe we've out grown the thing of having to go to ah see a role where there's a whore or ...
S do you think that...see some of the other opera that you were referring to ah Mr. Duncan sort of responded too about that, he mentioned a couple of operas that ...oh I've forgotten now to think...Carman was one of them but there's another one. He pointed out that ah you have rape and incest in most operas then others, but then ah why don't these opera singers say yes but ah there's a lot of history with Germans and the Spanish and the Italians but not with the blacks...see you have blacks just sort of getting up on their feet and if you go to Europe as they did in the early days people didn't really know enough...they still think that, Hong Kong and China...and they see me and oh tell me about Harlem ...Tell me about the ghetto.
S so how do you ah ...
S do you think though is the fact that you said earlier that here's a group of white people that we're about a bunch of black people doing thing that we abhor, do you think that's why maybe the young people are...
S if it had been blacks talking about ourselves.
S and maybe the younger performers would have a different snap on it.
S you've been very gracious
S well it's been my personal privilege, I mean I feel like I'm probably old enough to be just your son, but remember when Ann and Matthew and point out the three generations?
S right...well you have quite a few prodigy's not having married you have an awful lot of followers and people that owe their success and musicianship ...
S right... but not too long, because there's nothing bad about that because you've influenced such a great number of people through the music that you...
S I guess that's what counts for your virility your tenacity your vigor your everything that...
S thank you very much.
END OF INTERVIEW
A ...and people thought that he had received the picture
A Only knew him by hearing about him as he related to the player ŒPorgy'.
A Well, Paul Robson, I never met. But when I went to England in '35, I had a letter of introduction to them. And, when I arrived in London, I found that they had already gone to Russia. And uh, I guess I sent the letter to their address and they must have gotten it later, and when I came back in January, I was en route back to __________ to finish my Master's and I was going to see the production of Porgy and Bess for the first time, I had a cable from Mrs. Robson saying, Œplease join us in our box on the certain night for Porgy and Bess'. Mr. Robson wasn't there, but she was there and that's when I first met her.
A Oh yes, it started in 1935.
A And I came back January of '36.
A Yeah, right.
A ...never until '57 / '58.
A Oh, yes. That was the first time I met him.
A ...I accompanied, this was his last northern California tour he did some half dozen concerts. San Francisco, Oakland, San Jose, Sacramento...and uh, Dr. Carleton Goodlet who had taught at Fisk and was a friend of Robson's, had been asked to find an accompanist for him and he called me up, and I said, Œof course, I'd be honored' so he brought Robson to my apartment, and we uh, rehearsed for uh, the half dozen concerts that he was going to sing during the next two years in northern California.
A Well...
A No, uh, we...
A Well, I don't know. I had heard of his speaking out against segregation refusing to sing before segregated audiences and uh, I could only admire him for that. But, on the concerts that we did, he did no speaking unless in reference to a song, but he insisted that I play two groups of piano solos on each program, which I did. And he gave equal billing to me and had a biographical sketch of myself as well as of himself.
A And he was a wonderful, inspiring, man.
A No, never spoke in the concerts we were...
A Well there was some in, as I recall, some in the fall of '57 and the spring of '58.
A ...just recently.
A And on the McNeil Era hour...
A And he reminded me of his father and he spoke beautifully and I was sorry that I didn't have a tape of it, but one can get a tape of that particular McNeil Era hour.
A Oh, yes, I do, but I know the Blacks were divided, like always. I remember Jackie Robinson spoke ill of him which made me not have too much respect for Jackie Robinson...
A ...because I admired Paul Robson so much. He spoke no politics to me, we just talked music.
A Well, when he came, I came to Howard in 1930, he came '31 and um, I accompanied him as I did L_____ Von Jones the violinist and uh we did concerts occasionally in some of the Black colleges in the South. I have programs, various colleges, where we appeared.
A No...I don't recall doing any White colleges. I don't know why.
A No. Not that I recall. I recall we did, I did uh, concerts with both Avanti and Todd Duncan at Chainey (sp?) Pennsylvania...
A ...which is a Black college...
A Yeah, but the President was um, oh, I can't recall his name, oh, Leslie Pinckney Hill.
A And uh, ...
A Yeah, right
A I go down the alphabet and I was trying to remember the name of a White singer who had sung at the church that I was ministering music at in Berkley, and I went A...B...C...an I got to about H...J, and I said, Œsometime, I ought to start at the other end of the alphabet...Z his name was Gordon Zimmerman.
A That's when they were in Porgy and Bess...
A Oh, yes, yes.
A Well, they, he and Ann Brown, refused to sing for a segregated audience, like Robson had in St. Louis. The union said they would fine them. Said they didn't care. And the theatre said, well, we will have Whites downstairs and Black upstairs. No. Then finally, they said, we'll divide the house. No. It has to be a completely un segregated audience. And, the National Theatre gave in...that's the way Porgy and Bess...
A Oh, yes. But, Duncan said that he didn't care how much they fined him. They would not appear and if they would not appear, they would not be any funds the theatre would make.
A Oh, I'm sure they did...I'm sure they did.
A Oh, yes. Yes, it was.
A I wasn't there, but I recall that Todd Duncan and Ann Brown refused to sing in the National Theatre to a segregated audience.
A ...I think so. And, then the theatre said they would have Blacks upstairs and Whites downstairs. No. Well, we'll divide it in half. No. And they finally had to give in if they were going to have Porgy and Bess by having completely unsegregated audience.
A It may have. I don't recall.
A ...yeah, right. You see, I had left Washington then. I was in Nashville.
A Well, traveling with Todd Duncan, I can remember two occasions. One was in I think Colorado Springs. Where when we arrived the committee met us and said, ŒMr. Duncan, you're going to stay at the residence of so and so and Mr. Allen you're going to stay'...
A And uh, Mr. Duncan said, Œbut we have mail at the hotel', Œwell, we've picked that up' so we knew that the hotel had refused. Then I seem to recall in Caracas, Venezuela where we went to the Hollywood Hotel and we found out later that another hotel had refused us, but as a result of that, the Venezuelan government find hotels that ever segregated or did that again.
A Yeah, no.
A Right.
A As I recall, they did.
A They forced them to follow the law.
A Yeah, I don't recall we traveled first class always on ships, I remember, coming back on the New Amsterdam from Europe we were first class. And I don't EVER recall any...in Australia when we went of course we had no difficulty, but we uh, we, at that time, Blacks were questioned Œbout their background and everything but we had no difficulty whatsoever in the concerts in Australia were absolutely successful. The first, we did nine concerts in Melbourne, Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday for three consecutive weeks and then a week of rest and then the same nine in Sydney. I played a group of piano solos in each one right after intermission. The first two or three concerts in Melbourne were papered. At the end, they were sitting on the stage, on the platform couple hundred people. We have pictures showing, at the end of the ninth concert, where out in the street, crowds were waiting as we left.
A Oh, no...I don't recall any racial incident.
A That's right, the United States of America.
A Which is still a racist country.
A Every day don't you hear incidences every day where there's racial...it's better, yes. I remember in my home in Portland, Oregon where Marion Anderson was asked to use the freight elevator...
A Yeah.
A Oh, I was in that audience.
A Yeah, Easter Sunday, in 1939...
A The DAR refused her the right to sing at Constitution Hall, it was the best thing that could have ever happened.
A The DAR shot her salary up because Eleanor Roosevelt and uh,...
A ...right, _______ her to sing in front of the Lincoln Memorial to more people that could have heard her in the hall and the whole world knew about it.
A Absolutely, absolutely.
A No, when we were touring, she had invited us to be guests at her home when we did a concert in Danville Connecticut. And, when we arrived, we were met by her husband, Orpheus Fisher (sp?) who said Marion regretted she had to leave that morning on a concert. And, he took care of us for the three days we were there.
A So, uh, we did not see her personally.
A I have met him...heard him. He is the conductor of the Oregon Symphony in my native home.
A Aren't you thinking of Paul....there's another man in Canada.
A He's uh,
A Yeah, the Oregon Symphony in Portland, Oregon.
A Well, of course, during the years that I remained at Howard University with various concerts together.
A Right. But, I left after I came back from England and got my Masters, I was offered a position at Fisk University by Thomas Jones, the last White President of Fisk. He came to Overland that year and Ms. Alice Grass who was one of the White piano teachers at Fisk and who was the piano teacher of my aunt. She was studying that summer and she was with my teacher and she said, "William, you must come to Fisk University." I said, "Oh, Ms. Grass, I couldn't come South." And she got indignant and said, "What do you mean you couldn't come South. You're roots are in the South. You're father was born there." So, Dr. Jones came and he made me an offer and I accepted. I must say it was a very happy time; I enjoyed it more than Howard, and Ms. Grass said, "You know, Fisk is an island in the South. You don't know that you're being safe, because in our neighborhood where Fisk is there is no segregation." And she was right.
A But I'll never forget my Freshman year at Overland, my father wanted me to go down and visit his relatives in Nashville for Christmas. I had taken the train from Cleveland to Cincinnati and then, at that time we were bussed to another station, and then I saw that I was in one bus and behind was a bus with blacks and I had a Pullman from Cincinnati to Nashville and the next morning I went in the station; I was waiting for my Aunt Nell to pick me up. Finally, she came and she said, "Boy, what are you doing in here. I was looking for you in the other waiting room." I was in the wrong waiting room.
A I guess not.
A Well, when he went to Porgy & Bess I went to England and then returned to Overland to get my Masters and then went to Fisk to teach. And I'll never forget, he phoned me once and he said, "Bill, I'm going to leave Porgy & Bess and I'm going to do concerts. Do you have any suggestions for an accompanist?" I said, "Well, I don't know, I'll think about it and let you know." He said, "Well I thought you might offer." I said, "I thought you might ask me." So that year I left Fisk and that was the summer of '42 and we began rehearsing and I moved to Washington to the International House there and stayed there and we worked all summer on two programs. Then he went back to Porgy & Bess in the fall and I moved to New York to try to find place to live. I lived for a time with friends in Greenwich Village until I found an apartment in Greenwich Village. During the 10 years I accompanied Todd Duncan I lived in New York.
A Yeah, in New York. I'll never forget the first time we went to South America and I was to take the plane in New York and they were to get on in Washington. And you know those days they didn't have the trolleys that come out to meet the plane. You had to walk out in the field. And we sat there for a half hour and I could see them in the distance, and then finally the plane filled up and we took off. I said to the stewardess, "My friends were to get on." She says, "There were several people bumped for the military." And I arrived in Mexico City without them and that summer I had taken private lessons in Spanish with a lady friend of mine who lived in Greenwich Village and we had a lady from the Mexican Council to come down and she worked all afternoon with us and the last thing she said was, "Senor Allen" and she said it in Spanish, "You must promise me when you arrive in my Country next week you will speak Spanish." And so I arrived alone, went to the hotel, asked for my room in Spanish. I knew the clerk could speak as English as well as I could, but he was very polite, called a young bellboy over to take me to my room. And, on the way up in the elevator, I said something in Spanish and made a mistake in grammar and this little boy said, "No, Senor, that is not correct." And he corrected me and he said, "Repeat." And I repeated and he said, "Si, Senor." Then he took me to my room.
A Oh, yes, we caught up in Guatemala, our first concert. I stayed in, I think it was 5 days and Brick Tops had a nightclub there and I went to the nightclub Brick Tops and then I met then in Guatemala where our first concerts were.
A And then we were going to El Salvador and I was just talking to my cousins who are great travelers, this week. I said, "Think of all the places where disturbances are going on in the world where we concretized you couldn't go do it today." Guatemala, Panama, Columbia, Haiti. You couldn't go to those places today in concerts.
A Oh, no. In '50, we were in Australia and they telephoned him wanting him to be in "Lost in the Stars", so he purchased a copy of Cry of the Beloved Country by Patton and read it and finally decided that he would. Well he had to cancel concerts in Perth and return to New York. His wife, Gladys, who hates to fly. In fact, when we went down to Australia, the first, well one time, we got to Honolulu where we did a concert and then she found out there was a ship going to Australia and she changed and she arrived after we had done 2 or 3 concerts in Australia. But, anyhow, we
A Oh, yes, and so he decided that he would and he cancelled the concert in Perth and came back and Gladys and I came back on the boat, the Orangea. As intended we were 24 days at sea. Sydney to Aukland to Honolulu to Vancouver. I loved every moment of it.
A No. No storms. And then that's when Dr. Johnson invited me to come back to Fisk.
A He was the first Black President.
A Oh, yes. He had gone for rehearsals and was doing "Lost in the Stars", and I went back to Fisk and at the end of time, Dr. Johnson wanted me to stay but I went back for 3 more years with Todd Duncan.
A Well, of course, he was very interested in the story of "Cry the Beloved Country" and had learned all by their own Patton, and that's what attracted him to the role.
A Well, yes. At that time, I thought "well, it ever obtain democracy as in the United States." Then I said, "well, we finally attained in the United States". Maybe some time they will and when you look at it today with what is happening there, it's rather a miracle. Although they're still struggling; a lot of deaths.
A Oh, yeah. Right.
A No. I don't think it's racist. It's a story of the times of that period, and after all Gershwin went down to Georgia and lived with the people.
A Yeah, Well...
A Well, Hall Johnson would say that, naturally.
A Well, I knew Hall Johnson very well and I think that maybe it's sort of jealousy on the part of a Black composer that didn't think about it, didn't do it.
A Right. Right. Did Todd Duncan tell you about the funny incidence of Georgette at Harvard who played Mariah?
A And, who was the conductor?
A No, not Steinard. Oh, well the production , the manager, Mamoulian.
A They were talking Russian and they said something about Georgette and to their astonishment, she came out to them and she had been in Russia for 7 or 8 years and she spoke to them in Russian, and it astonished them.
A Yes. As I recall.
A Yeah. He had written "Green Pastures" but it didn't have the success of Porgy & Bess, and he was a very able composer, but I think there could have been a little jealousy.
A There could have been. Could have been. That exists.
A Right. Absolutely.
A It could be. Of course, he was very successful although he was the original Avon Long. Yeah.
A Oh, Buck and Bubbles.
A Yeah. Right. Avon Long was the second one.
A Yes. The performance I saw in January 1936 he performed.
A Oh, he was. He was.
A But each character -- what's the character's name?
A Has been good in his way and each has been different.
A ŒCause I've seen Cab Calloway do it, I saw Avon Long do it, and each one was different, each one was good.
A Oh, yes. I know. They came up the Coast to San Francisco.
A Yes. Yeah.
A Oh, he's way up in his 90s. I watch him whenever possible on the...
A That's right.
A Absolutely. There have been so many who have gone on.
A Well, of course, Anne Starr with Ann Brown, Hadda Motin had hers, well,
A Oh, yes, Leontine Price, of course, starred with her. I mean her success really was launched by Porgy & Bess.
A I don't know why. I remember the first singer I accompanied out West was Helen Thigpen.
A And do you remember when she married
A No, no, no. It was in Moscow and Life had big pictures of Porgy & Bess there and
A ...but she didn't stay married very long because when she got back here and came to California and she did a series of a half-dozen concerts in state colleges in the summer of 1954.
A Yeah, right.
A I forget, but I accompanied her in these concerts -- these 6 concerts.
A Right, she was, and she was another artist who worked for the accompanists and she knew what she wanted. She would come out after the show she was in San Francisco and she'd come out at 12 o'clock, and my apartment was over a drugstore and it was closed at 9. We could practice all night long. She'd come out and she had jewelry on and she'd said, "I'm tired, Bruta." I said, "Helen, will you take those things off of my Steinway?"
A But she would sit down at the piano with me and she wouldn't sing a thing for many times, and she'd go through the scores. She introduced to the Howard Swanson songs, and then, she would sing.
A She knew exactly what she wanted, and she was a very, very interesting person. I enjoyed working with her.
A Right. And she had me come down to accompany her in Los Angeles, I think it was a concert at the University of California in L.A. She had a very successful concert there and you see, the one who had backed her in the Eastener Town Hall concert was Dr. Volarez Spatlan, head of the romance language department at Howard University. I think it was he who must have suggested to her to get in touch with me and I met a good friend of his sister, Estralda Spratlin Gray, who lives in Los Angeles. Of course, Dr. Spratlin was a cripple from polio. A wonderful man and his sister Estralda was teaching at Armstrong High School. She married an architect. They spent much of their time in Mexico and she's his widow who lives in Los Angeles and occasionally we get together either in Los Angeles or San Francisco.
A Oh, yes. I saw the last performance in Washington before they went to New York and were married the next day, or the Monday I guess it was,
A Yes. In New York. I attended the wedding.
A Adam Clayton Powell,
A I don't remember his not showing up, but the photographers absolutely ruined the wedding. They were all over. It was just a wild thing, and then, I don't remember his not showing up.
A It may have been.
A Oh, yes, and they left the next day for Europe.
A I don't remember very much about it. I remember that it happened.
A Oh, really? Oh, that's right. I did see
that.
A you mean we used up all these tapes?
A oh I'm enjoying it too...
A right...
A yeah right...
A who?
A yeah...I, of course they did five performances, where the understudy usually did a couple, but ah that's, particular on one that wants to become a concert singer. I mean opera... no opera singer would be like that...
A yeah, well you can't blame the singer...it ah helps to make them and get started...
A yeah, but they pay a price.
A yeah...
A no, no ah...
A no ah Marilyn Horn was...
A I think Marilyn Horn was...I think so...
A well check on that and see if it wasn't Marilyn Horn
A Clara... I would think Clara...
A cause I think that's the part she did, after Abby Mitchell she did Clara...
A look that up, I'd like to ...
A uh...yeah, cause I came to San Francisco in fifty-three, it was the summer of fifty-four.
A and I think after that, she went to Los Angeles, because she had me come down and accompany her in a concert at U. C. L. A. sometime in fifty-four.
A Huh...
A uh, ha...
A yeah, yeah,
A I think so...Abby Mitchell played it first.
A I heard the two...and I heard Edda Modem ...
A and of course Leontine Price she was...
A well I think Leontine Price has one of the most unique voices, when you turn the classic music station you hear soprano you know whither it is or isn't Leontine Price. It's really distinctive.
A oh no she was definitely a singer-actress.
A well I think that Edda was more of an actress.
A who?
A Ann Brown was a singer-actress but she didn't have as distinctive of voice as Leontine Price.
A oh yeah...yeah...
A right...
A not as great...no...
A we umm...she was at Julliard four years, I was there only one year and ah and then I took lessons the second year. Ann Brown and I met last summer in Paris and we went to the Julliard alumni reunion in Fountain Ball together, with her sister Miami Wheatley who had been a piano pupil of mine at Howard.
A André Wheatley went to Howard and he studied under Hazel Harrison. He went to Howard after I did.
A at the Fountain Ball, and then ah, very interesting...when Todd and I did the Concerts in Scandinavia, we were there three times. I think it must have been forty-nine, fifty, one, and ah the assistant manager there was Rudolph Lee beck, and he and his wife were wonderful friends to us and they had a young son, five or six years old, Sven Eric Lee beck. And he had written the music to a lullaby and it was printed and his picture was on the front of it and ah he autographed a copy to me, Uncle Bill and Uncle Todd, he could speak no English and when I came to San Francisco I went to a ah the Orphium Theater one of the first wide screen things, and here was a Norwegian training ship leaving Oslo and Mr. And Mrs. Lee beck were bring their seventeen year old son, Sven Eric down to see that there was a piano on board so he could practice. And I almost jumped out of my seat you know and then it showed the ship arriving in Boston and ah he playing the Greek Concerto accompanied by the Boston Pops with Arthur Fielder. And when I went to the Julliard alumni reunion last summer in...no last January in Beverly Hills and ah so ah each member of the table with over fifty was asked to introduce himself. So I introduced myself, saying I was a graduate of Overland but had taken post-graduate work at Julliard, and at the end of the mime I was with my sister-in-law and at the end of the time two gentlemen came up and one said; I'm an Overland graduate and I went to Julliard afterwards and I'm head of the music department of Los Angeles Municipal Collage or something, and the other one came and said I'm Sven Eric Lee beck. Here he is forty-five or forty years and he introduced me to his wife and he said I'm so glad to meet you after all these years, and we've kept in touch ever since and ah and I remind...well I sent him copies of the last letters that I had from his mother and father. When I was in Oslo a couple of years ago I tried to find them and found that his father had dies and his mother had Alzheimer's disease and had since passed. Because Ann brown tried to find them for me and couldnŒt find them and I found that Sven Eric had gone to Australia and an American friend of mine who went to Australia a few years ago, she looked him up, found that he lived in Hollywood had a phone number and sent it to me and I phoned him in Hollywood. His wife answered, she said well may I tell him who's calling and I said yes, and when he came I said; do you remember...he said of course I remember Mr. Duncan and Mr. Allen. So we've remained in correspondence since.
A well I ah I taught Silvia briefly, the summer of ah I guess it was ah one summer when I was working at Todd's, and her mother lived just around the corner and she was at Howard and her mother wasn't very satisfied with her lessons so I gave her some lessons and then my teacher at Ogling came through Washington and I had Silvia play for him. And he ended up to make a long story short, giving her a scholarship. So she went to Ogling's studied with him, graduated in 1938 I believe and of course she's a great credit to him and to me what ever ...
A Luis Varincon, where Silvia's a houseguest, she had accompanied him in a violin solo at the Nam convention in Chicago in August...
A plays very well violin, and she took me to dinner at his gorgeous home and ah after wards persuaded him to play for me, and he's astonishing, he plays very well, and this gorgeous beautiful home had more trouble getting into it than getting on a plane.
A absolutely you were...even Silvia a houseguest, her handbag was examined by the man at the door.
A yes, and we had to take off our shoes, put on white socks, because the whole...they're marble floors and ah I was frisked absolutely and searched more thoroughly then on a plane.
A a big Cadillac car down to get us and at the end ah after he had played and I'd played Silvia played, he was most gracious and he said ah you must go back in a car, he said...I don't know weather he said the two fellows, the chauffer and another. He said I want you to take Dr. Allen back to his hotel and I want you to take him up to his room. One of them escorted me to my room, in the room and looked in the closet, is this another room...I said no it's a closet, okay...you're okay now, I said fine thank you gentlemen for bringing me back.
A no...I'm single
A she's still living, she lives near me and ah in ah the east side of the bay. She recently sold her home and moved into a retirement home, a very nice retirement home. And my brothers with who I'm very friendly lives in Los Angeles and her son lives in my native home Portland with his family, wife and ah young 7-year-old son and 3 year old daughter.
A there were four of us originally. I was the oldest, I had a younger brother who was eighteen months younger who died at the age of two and a half, my sister's three years younger then I, then out brother was three years younger than she, and he passed of a heart attack about ten years ago.
A well ah we have stereotypes all through the years, Amos and Andy on the radio, and we're gradually getting away from that but ah porgy was a true story ah of Georgia and Gresham went down and he immersed himself in the inhabitance of the island and ah _______ an able composer and finally they met after fifty years legitimizes it as an operas by ah performing it at the Metropolitan and most successfully...
A what about...what about all opera stories? They're true of their times and but their not up to date and I think Porgy & Bess is very legitimate and I was glad when it finally got to the Met...
A yeah of course...
A I think we have to face the facts...we remember the Harlem renaissance and we remember the poets of those days, Langston Hughes...how did he depict and use dialect...Paul Lawrence Dunbar did many poems in dialect ... and ah so we have to face the fact in history after all the English kind of get away from Henry the Eighth and his many wives and those he beheaded
A it may be it may...
A yeah that's right...
A it may be...it may be...
A I've enjoyed it very much...
A so you're like their...ah daughter and I call her my grand-student, because Ann and Matthew were both students of mine, and very fine students...
A well I ...well I guess I stayed married to my piano too long...
A yeah and I'm still active as an accompanist I accompany some people in San Frisco in January and some in New York in May at the ah ______ Hall.
A I hope so, I hope so...
A my pleasure...