1992 INTERVIEW

White Plains, 6/10/92

S = Standifer
C = Calloway

S Cab, you were had a long and distinguished career. Let's take a moment to talk a little about your days at the Cotton Club. (interruption) And I know that, what was life like back there? This is just the - you know, the Depression crash came about 1929 and lasted until about 1934 when Porgy and Bess was still being orchestrated. But how was life like for blacks in those days? Can you tell us a little about that?
C Well, you want me to tell you about the blacks or the African Americans.

S African Americans. (both laugh) That's ok. That's alright.
C I stand corrected.

S Yeah, how was it like for the African Americans? Right.
C That's a new phrase. That's the new thing is African American.

S Was there alot of -- did you experience segragation and
C Oh yes.

S Even as a performer?
C At times as a performer they segregated us in some of theatres.

S What about at the Cotton Club itself? Did you find -- was there segregation at the club?
C No.

S In the audience?
C We didn't have any segregation at the Cotton Club. No. The Cotton Club was wide open, it was free. There was no segregation.

S How did a night of performance go? What was the blow by blow description of one night at the Cotton Club?
C I get to the Cotton Club about nine o'clock. We played dance music up until about eleven or twelve. Then we put on a show. And then after the first show, dance music again. Then around two o'clock, three o'clock we put on a second show. We usually never got out of there before four or five o'clock in the morning. Every morning. So it was rough.

S Who were some of the people in the audience? Do you remember some -
C Everybody that you could name would join in our audiences from, Laguardia on down. Everybody came. Everybody came to the Cotton Club.

S Do you remember anyone connected with Porgy and Bess?
C Yes. George was there. George Gershwin was there. Visited there quite a few times. I think he liked me. He wanted me to ______ his Sportin Life first time. That after he had been to the Cotton Club and watched me move, and he created the role for Sportin Life after me. After my actions and my way of working. And it was quite interesting because, see, I knew that they were working on - writing for me. (indiscernible words) He offered me the first show. I couldn't take it, though. Because I was too much, I was going too much - the Cotton Club was still in existence at that time. But the second time around he caught me. He got me the second time around.

S Did you hear many people in Harlem talk about all the characters that were performing in the opera in 1935? Did many of the Harlemites talk about, you know, like Rose McClinton -
C No. No. Not that I know of. (interruption)

S And so George Gershwin actually came to the Cotton Club and observed you.
C Yes.

S And what were some of the things that he would talk with you about?
C Well, he didn't have much of a conversation with me. Not that I can remember. I wasn't used to him. That's about all. I don't know. No conversation.

S Did you see Bubbles or any of the early Sportin Lifes performed before you took the role? And, if so, can you tell us - maybe compare them?
C Bubbles was a very good dancer. Tremendous dancer. He was one of our leading dancers of the country at that time. And, of course, he didn't have much of a voice. But George put him in there for the first time, for the first Sportin Life he needed fantastic. And I was the first one that sang the role. Bubbles talked it and danced it. But the role basically was fantastic. Fantastic. There was a recent one that they brough over from Europe. Saw that on TV, when they had Porgy on crutches. Of course, nobody knows what Porgy was, whether he was on his knees all the time or was pulled by a goat or -- they don't know what he was. So they could make it any cripple - or they could put it in a wheelchair. That's the same. The boy did a very good job on Porgy.

S What about Sportin Life? I mean, Damon Evans?
C Very good. I thought it was quite nice. Quite nice. He sang the arias very good. Very good.

S But since you've had a chance to see several Sportin Lifes, including Damon Evans, could you just talk and sort of bring me into the experience of having seen, say, John Bubbles, _______, maybe Larry Marshal...If you had to give a sort of commentary on the Sportin Life that you've seen, how would you do that?
C Who's the best, you mean?

S Well, not necessarily who's the best, but how you would characterize them.
C Well. I'd have to give Bubbles a lot of credit, because Bubbles - when a guy can dance and sing in roles, that's a fantastic thing. That's fantastic. And he did very good. In fact, Bubbles was the only Sportin Life that I liked other than Cab Calloway. I thought I did a fantastic Sportin Life. I was the first one that sang it, the first one the sang the role. The rest of them - it's a hard role, a very hard role. And voice - wise it was hard. Because it ranges from baritone to tenor, and you had to have it. They had arias in there that would make a tenor back up. (laughs) One in there. (sings)

S And you did this several times a week.
C Yeah. Did it every time. Never missed a performance. Never missed a performance. (indiscernible words)

S Did you see Avon Long before you took the role in Dallas? And if you did, tell us how you patterned your role on what other - if you patterned your role on any other Sportin Life that you might have seen.
C No. I didn't pattern myself on any Sportin Life that I'd ever seen. Because there hadn't been that many of them. And in the first place, it was the role that I liked and I did and I created it. So I had to like it.

S Who was Sportin Life and what did you - how did you make him live? Who was he?
C Sportin Life was a high - flyin guy of Catfish Row. He was (word indiscernible) He had money. He was above all of them. And the others didn't like him because of that either. (laughs) He had money. And when he said to Bess, "Come on, let's go to New York," (laughs) nobody else could say to her, "Come on, let's go to New York."

S Was he a vile person?
C Huh?

S Was he a vile - the scum of the Earth?
C No! He was a silly guy. Out - do the other guy. That was his effort at all times. And he fell for Bess, well, he liked Bess. And he wanted her very bad. And he tried awful hard to get her.

S Do you think Sportin Life is a character in an opera that we look at today and try to look up to?
C Well, it all depends upon who Sportin Life is. (laughs) Who would they look up to? I mean, I don't know. You can't say they look up to him - if you did, you've got to look up to everybody in the show. But he's an outstanding character in the show.

S Tell use something about when you first went to Dallas and did the Sportin Life role. Just give us some of your impressions of joining the company, especially since you had had another career, and now you began a new career in this opera. Just give us some information about that particular performance and how you made the change. It was a big change.
C Well, I was rehearsed by Bob _____.Bob _____ gave me a wonderful, wonderful experience. He taught me alot. And I absorbed it. When I first hit the stage with Sportin Life, I was ready. I was ready - I didn't have no rehearsals after that.this character. I know you knew about it earlier, but what were some of your feelings and reactions about Sporting Life and doin (laughs) I absorbed it, learned the role, went out there and did it. From the first time they put me on, I did it for almost seven years. And didn't miss a show.

S Did you have any apprehensions the first time you got up there in Dallas?
C No. No. I'd been rehearsed. I had rehearsed and I knew what would happen. I went up there and did it.

S What did you do, though - what did you do to make it Cab Calloway, but at the same time Sportin Life.
C Well, I put Cab Calloway into Sportin Life. It's very simple. (laughs) I made it.

S Can you be more specific about - what are some of the specific things that you did that made it different from, say, Bubbles or Avon Long?
C Nothing different that I did - it being me and not Avon Long. It was Calloway and it wasn't Long. My interpretation of it, and I gave it to it, and that's the way George wanted it.

S Tell us something about your impressions of some of the other characters, like Leontine Price and Warfield and the others in the cast when you first joined the cast in Dallas.
C Wonderful singers. Wonderful singers. Leontine - Warfield at the time was fantastic. She had three Porgees, and had one, two, three Bess's. Leontine Price would do it one day. Oh, what's the girl's name.

S Urilee _______.
C Urilee....and, what's her name. I can't think of the name. And the same thing with the Porgys. You had a Porgy that sang one night - Warfield would do it one night, Laverne would do it, Hutchinson would do it one night.....and, what's the other boy's name. Boy I'm getting old. Can't remember them names.

S Can you tell us about some of the things that went on either back stage or on stage that you particularly interesting that you could share with us now? With these same characters....
C Well, nothing actually went on backstage, other than onstage - that's all. Everybody was (mumbles) - there was no kidding around like that. They were all for business. And they all took care of the business. One of the finest companies I've ever seen.

S Let me ask you, I want you to try to address three different things - (end tape #1)

S If I don't come back in I'm just letting you talk. Just sort of pull your memory in this and pull out those things if you - especially when you say that I made it - (indiscernible words) Cab Calloway to it, then let us know what Cab Calloway was. And let the audience know what are these particular things you did. (pause)

S Let's talk a little bit more about Dallas, especially maybe the love life that existed between Leontine Price and Warfield, the segregation that seemed to have been there, and some specific things that you did to make Sportin Life what it was.
C I played Dallas before I came there with Porgy and Bess. I had been there before. Dallas is a wonderful city, a wonderful town. There was this - of course, we didn't play Porgy and Bess in Dallas. We played it at the fairgrounds. And the fairgrounds was very popular. Their fair there is the ________ we ever had. And there's a theater out there and they put it up at the theater. So, I felt in Dallas that I was at home. I had been there so many times before. So, after a long rehearsal, on Monday (mumbles). I tore it up. I got a tremendous applause. Everybody. I don't know if it was because I had been to Dallas before, or what it was. And it was great. It was a hit. And we stayed there two weeks or three weeks. And everybody, as far as I could see, were very satisfied, very happy. And, of course, Porgy and Bess were close. And they began to know each other. So I think five or six weeks after, that's when Warfield and Price married. Of course, we didn't believe it was gonna happen. It was very, very thrilling when she got married in Washington. I think it was Washington. Second or third week of March. They got married. They seemed very compatible. Love was there. So it went on after that. And so, in Dallas, like I said before, after I'd been there before - and people in Dallas loved me, that thought I was great, cause I had played in the Majestic theater there people in Dallas loved me, they.... And it was fabulous. I did more for the colored folks. They came to the theater in Dallas when I was there, and they came to the fairgrounds. And the audience was mixed. It was very, very, very, very eventful, and beautiful.

S While in Dallas - I know that there was one stagehand that supposedly was fired because he had used the word nigger - and do you recall that incident at all?
C No. No, I don't recall that.

S ______ had him fired. Was the word "nigger" still in the performance of Porgy and Bess at the time you were there?
C No. We never used the word "nigger."

S You know, when Bess says, "Take that drug away, nigger!" Was that still there in the -
C No. No, Porgy and Bess was a clean company. Had a lot of experience in there. Lot of people like - I couldn't say Leontine, because it was early for her. But, uh, ______, and The Crab Man. All the experienced fellas had been through it, and were very lovely. (mumbles)

S In Washington D.C. there was an event where you all were taken down in the basement to eat - (interruption - Cab is asked to speak a little louder)

S In Washington, the cast was ushered down into the basement at the National Theater in Washington D.C., and I'm told that there were segregated washrooms, and there were photographs on the walls that talked about segregation. And some of the cast actually stopped and took photographs of it. Do you remember or recall that even at all? C; No.

S Okay. How about in Vienna where you were performing in Vienna at the _______ after you performed Hidy-Hidy-Ho.
C Yeah.

S How did that come about? That was very interested and Nufee gave me that film.
C Well, they have a party for us at the ________, and we all went over there, and, you know, at like a party, one entertains the other. And we had just a real, what we call a "clam bake." Everybody did something. It was very entertaining. We had a lot of fun. Lot of fun. And there was no segregation, that I could see. I never saw any.

S You said everybody did something. Could you tell us some of the things you did and someone else might have done at that party?
C Yeah. Warfield, he did the ______ . Warfield and.....two or three of the boys that were in the choir, like _____, that guy, they did a little thing. And, of course, I did (mumbles). We had a great time. Wonderful time. That _______ was fabulous. In fact, I've been back there since. I was in Vienna just a couple years ago, and I visited the opera house. It hadn't changed much.

S Was Helen _____ there in that particular performance as Clara?
C Yeah.

S Tell us something about those performers in Vienna. Were they the same ones that were in Dallas?
C Yeah.

S Did you do anything differently?
C No. The only thing was - it was played by the Vienna symphony. (interruption by phone)

S In the ______, any company would give a party
C if any company ever ga they always were warm. Do something to entertain each other. And also the visitors who were at the party. I sang Winnie the Moocher, had the whole audience, had everybody singing along with me as I usually do. And it was just a wonderful time. It was a good party. And Warfield do the ______. That's wonderful, was wonderful. We were entertaining each other, and the rest of the people were over there, who - I don't know who they were or what they were. But they were all down to the ______. The _______ was something. Had all of those beer kegs up there. (laughs) It was wonderful.

S Some of the people say that Porgy and Bess is riddled with stereotypes - you know, the shuffling, the hand - waving. Ann Brown talks about if she would do the Porgy and Bess today, she would get rid of some of those stereotypes. If you had an opportunity to produce Porgy and Bess, since you've seen the most recent version, what are some of the things that you would keep, and what are some of the things that you would take out?
C I'd do Sportin Life as Sportin Life should be done. That's all. I wouldn't change it.

S If you had to produce it, and you're telling your performers or your producers what you want, what would you change about it? Anything?
C Nothing. That's what George wrote! He wrote it. Why change it? There was this European company that I was speaking about awhile ago - course, didn't nobody know what Porgy was. (mumbles) He was pulled by a goat - that's there conception. But I wouldn't change anything.

S What is your worst memory of your performance time in Porgy and Bess, and what is your best memory? Can you describe the best thing that happened during the performance and then the worst thing that happened?
C They were all good. Can't say that none was best and none was worst. I don't know, they were all good as far as I was concerned. I worked every night, every show. I still do.

S Do you think the opera has influenced what whites think of blacks? Do you think it did in the '30s? Do you think it did -
C No. No. I think it was just an opera. Now, you go to opera, you expect to see and hear what the opera is. So, it was Catfish Row. It was singers. Marvelous voices. It didn't make no difference what color they were. And it was a great thing. And it proves as far as (mumbles) the black man to go. It's there. Doing opera. (laughs) Now I know

S you're doing a lot about Charleston. Do you think that Dubois Haywood really hit the mark when he described black people? And tell us a little about the environment of Porgy from Charleston.
C Yes. Charleston was a good town. It was a nice town. I played there years ago before Porgy and Bess. And I think the conception wasn't bad. It was good. But on opera. They did an opera. People had to interpret the parts. Ain't nothing wrong with that. When the people did, it was wonderful. (laughs) But I think that Porgy and Bess is a good opera. A very good opera. I ain't calling it no folk opera. But opera as operas present themselves.

S What's so good about it?
C Huh?

S What's good about it?
C What's good about it? All that good singing. And all those wonderful arias - it was fabulous. That's what Porgy and Bess was. Nothing other than that.

S Do you think that some of us try to read too much into the opera, then, when we look at the social aspects of the stereotypes and so forth?
C I don't know. Do the Italians look at their operas that way? Do the English look at it? I mean, just do it if you can do it. That's it. That's what amazed so many people in the world. That they could do it. That they could sing and they could interpret what the story was. That was wonderful. And it was a wonderful opera.

S Do you think that if a black person had written Porgy and Bess in the 1920s - the play came out in '27 as you know, and then the opera came out in 1935 - would it have been as popular? And if not, why? And if yes, why? A white man wrote this opera.
C Doesn't make any difference.

S Why?
C Why. He _______ interpreted it. It was interpreted the way he saw it in his mind. And the art that was displayed was phenomenal. That's all. You don't think it was because a white man wrote it, a black man wrote it, a green man wrote it. What - doesn't make a difference! Doesn't make a difference. I think he did a good job.

S I look at you as a role model, and I think some of us younger black look at you as a role model, and we need to know how life felt, say, in the '20s and '30s when you had opportunities, say, there at the Cotton Club in Harlem, in New York, when maybe some of the other blacks - were the other blacks at that time going to the Cotton Club? Were they going to Porg and Bess, the play in '27?
C Yeah.

S And if they went, what did they talk about? What did they say about it?
C I don't know. (laughs)

S What was the gossip? What was the scoop?
C Wasn't no scoop I ever heard of. The wanted to see a show. Wanted to see the opera.

S When they came back what happened? What did they say about it?
C I don't know. But Porgy and Bess was successful.

S Do you feel that Porgy and Bess is now a period piece, that is should be performed a great deal now, or should we just put in a museum and let it sit there?
C It should be as popular today as it was then. Because it's an opera. Opera can be in any language. Its performance is what _______. That's what made Porgy and Bess. That's what made Traviatta. The performance. The color, the idea, the story - that ultimately means nothing. What did you get, did you receive, are you satisfied? You go to see this opera. This opera satisfies you. You hear this beautiful thing and you get up. Thrill - this wonderful singing that people go wild about. Could be put on today - could be right on today Porgy and Bess could come on. It could be a hundred years from now.

S Here's Damon Evans, he's gona come here and say, "Cab, you performed one of the most notable Sportin Lifes. Give me some advice as to some things that I can do in performing this role." Let's say he's never performed it. What are some of the things that you would tell him, about some of the specific songs, that you could - some hints?
C No. He'd have to interpret it in his own mind.

S But let's say I'm gonna do it, and I want some hints from you.
C I can't give you any hints. Can't give you any hints. You've got to feel it yourself.

S Let me hear you sing a little of "It Ain't Necessarily So." Any part of it, and I'll get to my point. Can you give me any (sings a part) of that part. (Cab sings "It Ain't...")

S Why did you do it that way?
C That's the way I felt it. (laughs) I did it right.

S What do you think about Robert Breene and, say, ____ Breene and Ella. You said that Breene was very helpful. What specifically did he and Ella and others do to help you, to be that helpful.
C Well, Breene was a terrific actor. Couldn't sing. But he was a terrific actor. And what he put in the _______ Porgy and Bess - nobody else couldn't be like that. Ella was one of the finest "rehearsalers" (laughs) that you've ever seen. She could rehearse - I'm telling you, she could rehearse. Over and over and over. That's it! Boom! Do it just that way. She was fabulous. Ella ______ was. I don't know who they could get to put it on now. I don't know.

S What do you think about the recent production of Porgy and Bess?
C The one that was - ______ was saying she had a lot of criticisms...
C Yeah, the one that was on TV.

S Right.
C The only credit I can give them. They synchronize wonderful. That's all. They synchronize very - you would have thought that they were actually acting, but they were synching all the time, and that's a rough job. That's hard. It's tough. It's touch to synch. I watched practically all of it, and I thought the singing was fair, was good - we had better singing. Better singers. The boy that did Crown sang wonderful. The role of Crown I never hear as good as he did that. Porgy was Porgy. He was alright. And Bess, she was synching, but the synching was something else.

S We're living at a very violent time now, and some people say that Porgy and Bess was a pretty violent opera. You know, there were murders and there were - can you say something about the violence -
C What opera isn't? What opera isn't violent? Two things happen, violence and love. And other than that, name something else. You can't. Nobody else can. I don't think Porgy was that violent that it has to be criticized. I don't think so. And they were on the regular theme of an opera. And it was an opera. (sings) That's opera. That was just a line that came to my mind.

S Well, you know, there's also rape, there's drug abuse, and so forth. And you have this going on in the black ghetto, and these are a bunch of black people doing this on the stage. Do you have any -
C Nah. Nah, never, never, never. Why? 90%, 100% are going there to hear the singing. The story is another thing. Nobody's interested in the story. Happiness is happiness. Been going on for 99 years. It's in the opera. (mumbles) in other operas, I can't say that violence and all of that - the dope, it was just as common as sugar. You could almost go to the grocery store to get a pound of dope. Just like you get a pound of sugar. You can't hold that against it.

S What is Porgy and Bess - (end tape #2) (interference on tape - cuts in on interviewer)

S - unique ways of performing it?
C No. I rehearsed it and finished it. I did it the way that I had interpreted it myself. And I'll never change it. (interruption)

S In ________, Bess was raped actually by Crown. And also when they had that rather Dionysian scene of "Ain't Got No Shame" and you also sang "It Ain't Necessarily So." Give us just a brief description of that scene as you recall in terms of your role as Sportin Life.
C I think Sportin Life was well represented as what he was in the scenes. And I don't think - see anything else to add to it. Because, I mean, it's a scene. You rehearse it, you do it - that's it. We never changed anything.

S Were there any dance movements that were particularly difficult, especially as you did the singing?
C No. Not for one that could do them. Not difficult.

S Did you see the movie, and if so, when the movie came out in 1959, did you see that with Sidney Poitier and ________. What are some of your opinions about that movie?
C A movie and a stage show are two entirely different things. A picture, you can do anything you want. Change it, cut out a scene, put in a scene, take a scene out. They don't do that on stage. So the picture was done as a picture. That's all I can say about it. They did what they wanted to do. They take one scene into another - had no business being... Picture. That's all the difference.

S What about the critics? When you read your reviews of Sportin Life, can you remember any reviews in particular that you really liked, and some you really disliked? In the reviews...
C Well, I don't know. I've got all the reviews here. (laughs; mumbles) I don't think we got a bad one.

S Here's one reviewer that says, "In Europe, when Sportin Life was performed by Cab Calloway, he looked more like he owned the show rather than being a performer in the show." Do you remember that one?
C No. (laughs) What part of England was that?

S I think it was in Paris.
C Paris?

S I think so.
C We had a great run in Paris. It was sold out every performance in Paris. People sitting in the aisles. They loved it in Paris.

S Was it difficult for you to separate your role as the Hidy - Hidy - Ho king from the Sportin Life.
C No. Treat them both alike. Never knew the difference. That's Cab Calloway.

S What are some of the things you did in the Cab Calloway role that you carried over into the Sportin Life role? Let's talk about that for a moment.
C Well. They originally wanted - from me they wanted to type Sportin Life the same way it was typed by the others. But, no, I said, "You got to take me!" I can't impersonate nobody. Can't do that. I do it my way. According to your script, I will take care of your script, take care of everything that's... But I read a line different than you'd read a line. You'd read a line one way and I'd read it another, because it's your individuality that you put into a role. And that's what I did, I put myself into the role of Sportin Life. (interruption)

S (Also when we start rolling, maybe you can tell me a few - you said you brought - maybe you could give us a couple examples as to what you specifically did, and maybe the way you would say a particular line, or whether you make a particular movement. I'm trying to get - what was the Cab Calloway way? You say, "I did it my way." And can you tell the audience about what was your way in the Sportin Life? How was that different from ______ Bubble's way, or Avon Long's way? You said, "I wanna do it my way." So maybe you could tell me some specific instances where you said a line or you made a movement or something that was typically Cab Calloway.)
C Yeah. Ok. Take the role of Sportin Life. It was done by John Bubbles, Avon Long, Marshall - they interpreted their way. I interpreted my way. That's the only difference. See, I don't recite lines like you. You recite a line one way and I recite it another way. I put a different feel in it. You put one feel in it, I put another feel in it. That's all that is.

S What was your way?
C Cab Calloway.

S Give me an example.
C Eh?

S Give me an example of one of the songs or something that makes me let met know that it was Cab Calloway. Can you give us an example.
C "Boat Leavin For New York." The way I did it. Nobody did it that way. The others didn't do it that way. That's where the difference is.

S But what did you do? What specifically did you do that made it different?
C I put myself in it. (laughs) I put myself in that boat. That's all. (sings) Nobody ever did it. (sings again) That's the way it's written. (sings again) That's Cab Calloway. That's the only difference.

S What did you do with the happy dust that was different in getting Bess to use the happy dust that was different from any other Bubbles.
C I don't know that we were different. Because the presentation of the happy dust was just one thing that - there's only one way that you present somebody with dope. So I think they're all alike as far as that's concerned.

S Think for a little while about the movie, cause you know the family took the movie off the market. Why do you think they did that? What were some of the reasons in your own mind that you think that happened?
C (mumbles) I think it was a very bad picture. Very bad picture. It wasn't Porgy and Bess. It's very difficult to photograph an opera. And they messed up on it. It just wasn't there. And I don't blame the Gershwins for taking it away. Of course, if they had gotten the original company to have done it, it would have been very good. But - what's the girls name...that did Bess?

S Dorothy Landridge.
C Landridge. Dorothy Landridge. Dorothy Landridge do Bess? Dorothy's sisters were better singers than she was! But, I don't know. Why didn't they get ________. She would have wowed them in that picture. I blame the Gershwins. They were right.

S What do you think that Porgy and Bess in legacy of George Gershwin - is one of the legacies that he had - of course, ______ his opera - some people say its a legacy to the black people. Do you think it's a legacy to blacks? And do you think it's a legacy to black performers?
C No, it's not a legacy, it's an opera. And George Gershwin wrote it. He wrote about the blacks, and the blacks played it. The did a wonderful job. I think they made as much money off Porgy and Bess as anything I've ever heard of.

S Why did he call it a "negro opera"?
C Well, it is. It is a - what is it? American, African opera. (laughs) It is. They (word indiscernible) from Catfish Row - Catfish Row was a lot of fun.

S Why do you suppose that Gershwin and Haywood chose Bess's that were light - complexioned? Because Haywood, as you know, in the play and in the book, Bess was very dark, very gaunt, and scars on her face and so forth. But you notice in 1935 - in fact, it was not until 1950 that they begin to see some black Bess's. Was there anything about the society, about the times?
C No. There was nothing about.... It's just their interpretation. It was the way they wanted to do it.

S You have a lot of black people in the Cotton Club in the '30s and '20s performing? I mean, when I say black people, I mean black - complexioned people. Were women in the line that you performed with - I've seen a few of your movies at the Cotton Club and all the women were light - complexioned. Was this just something that was done at the time?
C They were mixed. Light and dark. Primarily brown - skinned.

S Do you think there was any reason that -
C No. Just looked good - we had a girl at the Cotton Club named Coral Red. She's black as they bring 'em. But she could dance. Two steps she had. And she used to wow at every show. Coral Red. And then, well we just lost one of the Cotton Club m girls, one of the stars of the Cotton Club, Adelaide Hall. She just died a couple days ago. She was a good singer. Good performer.

S Were there many Ann Browns around who were black, or Etta Motens around when Catfish Row. He was (word indiscernible) He had money. He was above all of them. And the others didn't ,you were in the '40s and '30s? Ann Brown happened to be very fair. Etta Moten is very fair. These are former Bess's, and were there other Bess's, black Bess's in complexion, that were around that could have performed like this woman that you mentioned in the Cotton Club? That role?
C No. They had to look a long time to get a Bess. Had to look a long time to get a Porgy. (pause) Long time! Of course, I dont' associate those things. People to me are people. I don't care what you look like, who you are. If I like ya, I like ya.

S Do you think Gershwin thought that way?
C I couldn't tell you what Gershwin thought. I think Gershwin had the idea or he wouldn't have written the opera. There's never been one since and there wasn't any before. Gershwin was a great composer. Others have come on after him that we had at the Cotton Club. We had a guy like Harold ______. Ted ____. Hogie Carmichael. Writing the music for the Cotton Club.

S Who were the black writers?
C Very few. Very few. Wodrey. Yeah, he was a musician's boy. (laughs) Man, he could rehearse an orchestra. Rehearse an orchestra. He'd stop, look over at the third saxaphone and say, "In bar four, you made an E - flat. I should be a C." Now in his mind, he knew the notes. Couldn't fool him. Wonderful musician.

S Was reading music important in doing the role of Sportin Life?
C Sure! Sure!

S Bubbles couldn't read music.
C One of the lucky guys. Ann Brown could. Ann Brown had the same teacher that I had in Douglas High School in Baltimore. Ann was a good singer. Wonderful singer. Wonderful singer. I don't know. Last time I'd seen her, I saw her in Paris about five years ago changing planes...(mumbles)

S When you looked at the score of Porgy...(interruption) I'm sorry. When you saw Ann Brown?
C In the airport. I'm changing planes. (mumbles) I knew her when she was fourteen, fifteen years old. And she's about eighty now. She can't be less than that.

S She said she would take all the hand - wavings and some of the shuffling out of Porgy and Bess if she would redo it. Would you agree with that?
C No. That was an interpretation of a hand - waving... Porgy and Bess is a great opera. It's classified now as one of the few American operas. And it's lived for sixty, seventy, eighty years. So, you can't do anything about it. It's proved itself.

S When you looked at the score of Sportin Life, you said reading music and being able to identify notation and so forth was very important. When you looked at the score, did you find it very difficult music to interpret?
C No. (mumbles) Look at it and read it. And interpret it. Your way or - interpret it the way the score is.

S So you improvised it along the role.
C Oh sure. Sure. (interruption)

S Just one question last. We're about finished. It's two o'clock. You started in the beginning of the interview to tell us something about the two times you met George Gershwin, and he pointed out that this role that he was producing was modeled after Cab Calloway. Can you tell us just a little bit more about that? You were young, and I assume rather flattered you were being offered a role in an upcoming opera. Can you tell us any more about that in your first meeting?
C No. I can't quite remember. The only thing I can remember was the fact that he was in the Cotton Club frequently. Frequently. I mean, twice a week, three times a week. And he was getting things to write. That's what he was doing. To hear and to listen to the music that was being displayed at the Cotton Club. See, the Cotton Club was the greatest club - we had nothing but top - rate entertainment. And the finest. Finest you could see, finest in America. And we sold it.

S So Gershwin was taking notes on how you performed?
C That's it. And I imagine - I don't know what he was thinking - he would turn around and say, "I write this and put this here, I put that there, 'cause I saw this." See, Gershwin was a great musician. He was a great musician. And he wrote Porgy and Bess, which is the only black opera that we have in the world.

S Who finally offered you the role when you finally accepted it? Who did the offer come from?
C It came from - I don't know. It came from my agent.

S Was it Breen that offerred it, or -
C No. I don't know whether it was Breen. No, Breen wasn't around then.

S Yes, he was still.
C No. When Gershwin was coming to the Cotton Club -

S No, I mean he offered you the role in the '50s.
C Oh, in the '50s.

S In the Breen production.
C I don't know. My agent booked me in the show. That's all. I don't who asked what.

S Let's close. But what do you think the value of this opera is to American society? What is its importance now? You say, "it's very important, it's a great opera." What makes it so great and what important does it have to us today?
C Well, because of its individuality, for one thing? (mumbles) There's nothing like Porgy and Bess. It's an individual thing. And it's great entertainment. That is the principle of the whole thing. Entertain your public. Could be the greatest - if it's not entertaining, it don't mean a thing. And that's my principle point in the business, as long as I've been in it, which is 72 years, 73 years. Entertain my public.

S Thank you. (break, then interview resumes)

S - seeing what they're doing, the dance Ain't Got No Shame and Sportin Life.
C Yeah. I played that at Pace University last Thursday, I think it was. And the guy who was putting on the show, you know, he said, "You don't have to put on any costumes, you can just come out in your street shirt. Street Clothes." I said, "Don't insult me. Don't insult me. I never go on a stage unless I go on a stage dressed!" Tuxedo. _____ Whatever, Sportin Life. Whatever. Why? I respect my audience. And when I entertain, when I work, I'm working for you. I work to you. I try to satisfy you. Now, that might be one of the keys for why I've been in the business as long as I have or not. And I am respected all over the world. All over the world.

S And the bottom line is entertainment.
C Entertain your public.

END OF INTERVIEW