Willie Dixon

I = Interviewer
D = Willie Dixon

I We're talking to mister Willie Dixon in Chicago at the Blackstone Hotel. Mr. Dixon, could you tell me some of the basic things about the Willie Dixon life, Is Willie Dixon your real name and when you were born and where you were born and things like that.
D Yes, my real name is Willie Dixon, most people in the south where I grew up as a kid they called me WD Dixon, because my _______ James Dixon and I was born in Detroit Mississippi, July the first 1915. As a youngster I lived around Vicksburg in fact different places. We had a home we rented property there, I lived all over Vicksburg and I stayed there when I first left home. I ran away from home as a kid when I was eleven years old, and I went to a place called Byhalia Mississippi which was about fifteen or twenty miles out of Vicksburg at that time.

I Were you alone then? Did you run into...?
D Oh yeah I went alone and I went to some of the people's homes that I had known as a kid. They used to come to my mothers restaurant down there in Vicksburg. We had a restaurant on Jackson road down there years ago. I stayed out there until my mother came and got me which was about a week, and it felt like it was way to long, guys out there was working me to death, I didn't know kids out in the country had so much work to do.

I so running away wasn't like you thought it was going to be huh?
D No it definitely wasn't because I know the kids used to come there on the weekend and sell charcoal and wood and I thought that would be a good thing but they had me building one of those charcoal kilns and I didn't know nothing about that hauling those great big old ______ all around camp, me and the other kids but they was accustom to it but I wasn't, and I was glad when my mother come and got me that was the first trip.

I what the first time you had run away?
D Yeah and then the second time I ran off I came to Chicago, in fact I seemed to have a habit of running off because things aren't very comfortable for you, you try to make a better move all the time and then the large family we had, we didn't have very much to work with and a lot of times no food and everything else you know I'd always take off and try to go somewhere to find something you know get me a job or something.

I How many were there in the family, you said a large family?
D Oh well it was only seven of us at home but my father I guess you probably saw him as much as I did you know, and you don't know it but anyway every once in a while, but it didn't mean nothing when I saw him no way because he had another family too, you know.

I oh he did, besides your family?
D oh yeah, yeah, yeah...he had another family too and they was much older family then we was.

I I see, well then your mother had that whole responsibility, how many children, seven?
D oh yeah she had all the responsibility, she used to wash and iron for other people, she used to grub the slop for folks from the poor people to feed the peaks, and she used to sell toilet articles and sometimes we'd go with her and sometimes we wouldn't you know, me and my brothers. We'd be washing and ironing for everybody around and cleaning peoples yards, sweeping sidewalks doing everything you know. It didn't take me long to get rid of it, I'd always take off every once and a while.

I well you had a lot of some things to run away from.
D The second time I came, I came to Chicago, I was about thirteen then, and I came here at that particular time they had these ice wagons and I got a job working on the ice wagons. I had an older sister here, her name was Katie Gibbs, and she married a fellow named Ted Gibbs. My older sister was here and I stayed with her and I worked on the ice wagon for the _________ Ice Company. They had horses pulling the wagons then.

I Is that when they had those big blocks of ice and you'd take an ice pick and chip it away?
D oh yeah that's right.

I Take it inside and put it in the person's refrig...
D yeah and these fellows found out that I was young and strong, and they would always have me carry a hundred pounds to the fourth floor.

I good gracious! So you were always a big boy then.
D oh yes I was big all my life, and they found out that I was big, young and strong and they kept me going. So I was been around Chicago a little over a year that time, I went back to Mississippi and then they had this thing, the C.C. Camps and so I finally got involved in C. C. Camps about 1934 or something like that I stayed there until 1935 then I came back to Chicago in the last part of 1936. Then after that, well I called myself a young fellow and I didn't know nothing about weather I could hit hard nor strong, I won the golden glove in Chicago in 1937.

I oh really?
D yeah...

I How did you happen to get in, did someone discover you or you just went to the gym and started fighting?
D Well ah I wanted, by living with my sister up here and I told her I wanted to be a fighter and she took me around the gym and I was pretty strong, I didn't know anything and I joined the gymnasium and Eddie Nichols had the gym at that timeout on the southern side, called the Sport Gymnasium, and I'd get on the ring with guys, I could hit so hard and that was it I guess.

I did you ever have any professional fights?
D Yeah I had three professional fights.

I how did you do?
D well I won two and I lost one.

I was that enough of that then?
D well I would have kept on fighting but ah I found out that my manager was getting more of the money than I was, and then we had a fight in the commissioners office right downtown Chicago, the ______ trainers office they called it, and then well after that fight, my manager and I both got expelled you know.

I I see...
D and for six months, after that six months I just didn't go back anymore, because during the time we'd be training, all the time there was a fellow hanging around the gym all the time, used to play the guitar and sing. His name was Baby Dew Caster. They called him Baby Dew; his name was Leonard Caster, he lives in Minnesota right now.

I what's that baby... baby dew?
D Baby Dew that's what they called him, that was his nickname, his mother gave him that from a kid, but his name was Leonard Caster. He and I used to sit on the gym, when I'd get through training we would sit on the edge of the ring and sing songs then we'd go out at night and play at different taverns and things, that was how we'd make money, so he got me to go in with him and after we started fooling around, at that particular time we had a little group called the Five Breezes there was five of us there was ah Willie Hawthorn, Jimmy Gilmore, Leonard Garrison a fellow called...his name was Fred Walker, they called him Cool Breeze and myself. Well the Five Breezes we were called morning breeze, evening breeze, the afternoon breeze cool breeze and midnight breeze, that was the five breezes and we kept this group together and we'd go all over the city all over Jew town and different places working, pass the hat around and after we passed the hat around we'd make money.

I now where was Jew town?
D it's right over here where it is now, over there on ah ...

I that's where the rich folks live?
D no...no that's over there where they do a lot of shopping selling you know go over there Sunday morning and find people from everywhere, wagons, carts, buggies everybody selling everything.

I kind of like a market area in Chicago.
D yeah it is a market area, it's a whole strip from 12th street to 14th street all along there.

I okay I know the area.
D and Maxwell street they called it Maxwell street, if you ever go out there on Sunday morning, early Sunday morning they'd be there all over the street, you can hardly get past them, but we'd sit up there and do a lot of playing and singing and sometimes we get almost a water bucket full of pennies nickels and dimes

I good gracious!
D we'd separate them and I found out I was making more like that then I was fighting.

I so you found your profession.
D oh yeah. So then we'd go in to the taverns all over the city, go in one tavern pass the hat and go in and out until we finally recorded I think it was Decca at that particular time, and when that group broke up we wanted, then we called it the Four Junctions Guys, after the Five breezes. Then we worked with the Four Junction Guys and we did a few recordings for nothing much, on one of those scab labels you know.

I now when you said Decca is this the big Decca label that?
D oh yes it's the big Decca now but it wasn't so big at that time.

I and that was your first professional recording date then, and you recorded under the name, the Five Breezes?
D yes...

I I see...
D and ah then we after that, after the Five Breezes we broke it down to three, it was the Big Three Trio. The Big Three Trio went just about everywhere, because we was all over the United States with the Big Three Trio and we recorded a lot of songs and was the first time we really had a song that got popular it was a song about; "Wee wee baby you sure look good to me."

I oh yeah...
D yeah and we were singing it in three part harmony you know.

I did you have any accompaniment at all?
D nothing but the piano and the guitar and the bass.

I what did you play in the group?
D I was playing bass.

I and sang the lead part?
D yes...no I was singing kind of the third, there was three of us and we were singing it in thirds to make harmony, and ah with the Big Three Trio I got a chance to record for Bullets, Delta and Columbia and several different other companies. But we recorded this, we made that thing they call the Signified Monkey popular too.

I you did? Who wrote that?
D yes...that was Cab Callaway recorded it and somebody with Louis Armstrong's band recorded it we recorded it.

I right, but Cab Callaway was down in Nashville a couple of summers ago and he mentioned that. Who wrote Signified Monkey anyway?
D Frankly I wrote the Signified Monkey, I wrote it out of school, when I was a kid I used to sell it as toke you know in school well not in school but right after school because, there was a lot of ah ...we had a lot of risqué stuff there and I had a fellow that printed me up a lot of copies and I'd take it all over and everywhere and sell it as a toast, when I first came to Chicago, the second time I came to Chicago I went to beauty parlors, barber shops, __________ and people would buy it.

I could you recite some of the words for us?
D Signified monkey said the monkey to the lion on a bright summer days I was a big bad cat there down the way; course I don't use the risqué parts, he talked about the ______ _______ and a lot of the things I'm afraid to say, but the lion done flipped out for a rage and the island cat was full of gage___ well I done forgot it now, but anyway every time you'd look around somebody would added more and more to it.

I did you get the copy rights so you can ...
D Yeah...oh yeah

I and its still yours?
D oh yeah...

I are you still getting it...
D well you see sometimes people are well I think somebody else is probably got involved with it, we're talking the Signified Monkey other folks called it the Jungle King you know, they changed it to a different name. But there was a boy in school named Danny Cooper he was as a kid a natural born cartoonist and this guy would make pictures when the teacher would leave the school, he'd make pictures of men _______ _______ _______ saying this is the monkey and this is the lion and all like that, so the teacher came back in one day, we was all laughing about it and having a ball, she gave all of us a whipping about it.

I would you use the risqué words then?
D oh yeah, well after she gave all of us a whipping, of course we'd quit talking about it until I'd think about it and would get to writing a poem about it, and I wrote it out just like Danny Cooper used to say it you know, and we'd tell it to each other and the kids would be giggling about it all the time until one day I decided to put it on paper. Then Walker; a fellow named Walker had a studio...

I this is here in Chicago?
D no that was in Mississippi...

I oh I see...oh you were a kid then right.
D and he said he might get on trouble printing those things for us, but he printed up a bunch of them and then when I got to Chicago...well I was selling them in Mississippi too, so when I got to Chicago I had them recopied several times and sold over and over again. Then after the war broke out boy everybody was selling had it and everybody was selling it and everybody had a different point and everything.

I what company did you finally sell it to?
D Columbia...

I Columbia, Columbia ...
D Columbia is the one that recorded it first with the Big Three Trio.

I I see and that was in the thirties?
D ah that was in ah... yeah that was in the thirties.

I I see, was that one of the first lyrics that you wrote that you got some commercial return on?
D oh yes, that was the same one.

I gee we always remember those first loves those first lyrics those first performances...
D I remember all of them sometimes when I'm really thinking.

I Ha...yeah
D yeah but then after we recorded for Columbia ah with Columbia we made Signified Monkey, we made Sure look good to me, and there was a tune called A poking, Come drink some whiskey after while, and Lonely Roaming Blues and...

I were you writing all these at that time or you would pick up arrangements?
D I was writing most of them, most of them sometimes other guys would help me if I... but see I been writing poems since I was ten and twelve years old I wrote a lot of poems and I used to try to sell them in the south to people and put them in book form and nobody would pay any attention and so when I got to Chicago I was putting them in these song forms you know and if I couldn't sell them in book form then I would try to sell them in song form people take some of the songs and I used to sell songs later even when I was in the south to country and western singers and they would take them and do different things with them, I thought they would put my name on the record cause some of them tell me they was going to put it on there...and they never did, once in a while one would come through with my name on it you know.

I which is the most notable example of your lyrics and also your music being used for that which you never got any recognition for?
D well maybe I've gotten more from the time when the Rolling Stones and these guys been doing my thing you know.

I oh like the Little Red Rooster for example...
D yes...

I when did you write that?
D oh I wrote them years ago, I had some of them since I was in the south.

I now is this the same...I heard Jose Felicino sing the Red Rooster Blues at Michigan, University of Michigan a few years ago and I assumed this was probably your version.
D oh yeah most of the roosters you hear now a day the Red Rooster's mine, they made some changes a little bit in places but its all the same practically.

I do you remember when you first put those words down on paper?
D oh I put those words down in around 1948 when I first wrote them...

I I see...
D but I had the Big Three Trio then but the guys wasn't doing that kind of stuff you know. When we recorded we recorded blues, but most of the places we was working was a lounges and places in white vicinities we didn't sing Wee Wee Baby in some of those white places you know. That was one of our hits, there was a time it was a hit all over but we wasn't singing that we was singing all the pop chart things.

I oh that was the kind of things they wanted to hear so you gave then what they wanted. When did...when were you able to sing what you were really making money for and what you wanted to do which was the blues?
D well every time we'd sing in black places like the south side in the black neighborhoods, we always sang the blues. You see when I was a kid my father and mother they both had different ideas about it, my father he liked blues and my mother was a devoted Christian and she thought the blues was sinful singing and my father say it's the facts of life and people that wrote these blues are singing about the condition they was in and they wanted other people to know it and was using it for communication anyway, and so the more he would tell me about it the more I would think about it and study about it till I began to putting two and two together and listening and relating my mind back to some of those conversations you can see how easy it is that the blues ah I had it and the blues was all that mattered in music.

I from where did you get the ah the motivation or the stimulus to write and sing the blues. I mean you...did you live the blues, did you live some of the things you write about?
D well frankly at that particular time everybody from the south was living the blues, yeah all the black people anyway you know. And knowing what the blues consists of and knowing how the people made them it was very easy for you to make them.

I The songs that you were writing at that time partly were inspiration and partly were just business, you know what needed to be said.
D well you see when you figure it out, its just like my old man used to tell, when you figure it out years ago how people evolve then probably speaking people, and ah years ago they didn't allow black people to talk to each other because communications and all the people at that particular time, black people wanted to go back to Africa and other places and naturally the bosses didn't want them to communicate along those lines and they stopped them from talking to each other, they even got displaced for tapping on the floor, or tap their hands on things because they thought like they was giving messages to each other. So but when they started their singing songs and chanting to the rhythm or what ever they was doing weather they was sawing wood or cutting wood or sliding logs capping cotton they could sing like that and this give the bosses the idea that they were doing more work because they had a rhythm going on and they got a chance to do that communications through singing these songs, like the people in the kitchen.

I I'm going to ask you a dumb question but I'm going to ask it anyway... did you ever chop cotton or pick cotton?
D oh yeah, are you kidding I done it all.

I did you ever sing when those rows were long in the afternoon some of those blues that you began to make money from?
D oh yes, I sang a lot of those songs in fact all of them believe it or not every song I frankly writing...all those I was writing in those days was related to a lot of those things because those are the things... you see the blues, most people don't understand the blues are the facts of life, whether its your past life your present or the future. You can sing about either part of life you chose as long as you have an understanding about it, and that was the idea of the blues was, to communicate with each other and its still used to communicate although the times change and I wouldn't be singing about no rabbits and dogs and cotton now because that's not in my line at this time, where if I was involved in that then I'd sing about that, so today is the political age and today people are thinking on a different level so you make your songs on a different level of what's happening.

I well I remember when I was a kid in Texas my friend Billy Guy who later on became one of the Coasters and Ruby Ray who later on became part of the Rayletts.
D part of the Coasters I recorded with him.

I oh yeah... okay well you might have known Billy Guy but anyway when we picked cotton in Cold Bones, they would sing the blues and maybe making up words as they go...
D well that's the way the blues is always been they make up words as they go about what ever they had on their mind at that time.

I well maybe this is the whole...what makes the blues so important is that can... it comes out of the soul, you just...
D definitely ...

I at the moment ever...
D definitely...

I when you sing the blues in the clubs do you ever change the words to fit the mood at that moment or you try to keep the words pretty well...
D well once you record them and get people to like them as certain things you try and keep up to that pattern.

I cause they want to hear that right...
D yeah...that's the way you want to hear it although you could can be it around a lot of times because in sometimes in certain ways your singing the blues to who your singing it to, and what your singing about...ah... people don't know your relating to them, this is why a lot of people claim that musicians ah associated themselves with an audience and be singing to certain people in the audience because these people feel guilty of what the musician is singing about you know.

I so you touch those spots huh?
D yeah you touch those spots and so forth, like when we be singing Owe wee baby you sure look good to me every chick in the audience just would think you were singing direct to me. You look at her you'd swear you singing it to her and felt like she looked good, and all these things, but all of these are the true facts of life expressed in words and songs and music feeling and understanding.

I now I noticed in Ann Arbor when you were singing at Rick's Café and you knew you were singing to a bunch of young people yet you didn't compromise your style just because there were mostly whites there you seemed to... they were just as eager to hear and ah they wanted to hear the real Willie Dixon evidently.
D well you see the only thing about it...the thing that I'm doing mostly is because I try to relate my music to the facts of life so they can understand. See because if I went to try to relate them back to the cotton and corn days they wouldn't understand that. They don't understand when guys sing a song about; Blue jumped a rabbit and ran for a solid mile, because today they ain't into wrestling rabbits and they ain't with a dog.

I what are they interested in then?
D well today their interested in politics and these kind of things and...

I but I notice your singing a lot about sex, which is like blues, sex is...
D sex is a fact of life...

I Ha! Ha! I see...
D sex is a fact of life and every thing in the face of the earth that lives, swim crawl or do anything have a portion of sex involved so naturally everybody interested in sex like or love it.

I I talked...interviewed Mr. Thomas Dorsey here a couple years ago and you know he wrote a lot of blues tunes when he was younger and then he stopped and started writing gospel but he said sometime that's why as early in his career as a gospel writer he couldn't get jobs in churches to sing because they kept thinking about the work that he sang...and prayed
D you know people have always tried to make blues the worst music, but the blues is really the best music on the face of the earth. Because it relates to anything in life any and all things, good, bad, right, wrong and anywhere in between that don't have a category. Like everything have to be biblical or heaven bound and I would say like popular things like love, sweet and happiness the blues don't have a limit. Any part of the...in fact god is calling as much in the blues as he is in spiritual songs, and love is calling much in the blues as much as it is in popular songs, but the facts of life expect all the time in the blues. Most people don't realize that they are actually hungry for the blues until they get them.

I I talked to Cynthia Wallace a few weeks ago and she told me that she plays in church every Sunday morning and does her gospel choir but she said blues are very direct and sometime people are a little disturbed by the blues but they...its just like a fire they can't help but go toward it though even though their disturbed because blues says it like it is and that what she called it the truth.
D it's the truth about it, well you see that's the true thing about blues you see most people don't realize what blues are because the world had been teaching negative things about the blues for so long until they just can't understand that blues being as popular as it is, when it should have been the most popular music in the world years ago.

I but do you think people talking about the blues and blues singers themselves, do they think we think that their a little bit responsible for that? You know so often a blues singer says okay, now I know, when I'm interviewing you, you can't help but have some preconceived ideas about what I want to hear, you know that I've read about you I've seen you and so as such you may be able to give me some comments about the blues that you want the world to know about but its your point of view, so you make that reputation that blues has. Do you think that reputation was partly given to us because of what blues singers themselves have said about blues?
D well no...blues singers just like the black people was when they first came to America, they just...the average guy just jumps into it because the somebody before him jumped into it and he really hasn't thought it over and a lot of them don't feel them, they sing them a lot people of all ages sing blues the same thing, they don't feel they get sang because in their mind somebody else said it before them, like people say well my people were black, they say my people was like this holy roller church is caring the will and I'm going to be the same thing, that why they don't give the subject no thought they just think that because my mother was that and my father was that I got to be this, you know, but when you go to thinking about it your self and trying to analyze the situation you find it all together different sometimes, cause this is the way I feel about the blues.

I who do you think of some people currently alive and performing that maybe are your...some of the finest blues singers in existence?
D well that all depends on what the public think. You see the people ...

I no I want to know what you think.
D oh what I think? Now people that I feel know what they're talking about in the blues are guys like Memphis Slim, and Little Brother Montgomery guys like that, they know what they are singing about and they know what it means when they sing the tune. Now there are a few others around that know what it means because they feel them and understand them, but then there are a lot of people that just fall in the soup cause you got a Cadillac out there and a Cadillac is a big car and I'll get a Cadillac you know, one of those things, but when it comes to the true facts of life this is what I'm about to say now, the true facts of life mean a true experience and understanding that people have had in life. If you have experienced a love life that went wrong and somebody and somebody is singing a love life that went wrong about, then naturally your going to understand what he's talking about. If your singing about, talking about something that went right, and here's a guy that got a good feeling about it and he singing a beautiful song like that he understands that. So the blues don't have that certain limits, that's what I'm trying to say, it doesn't have no boundaries, it's the true facts of life with a feeling expression and understanding and inspiration is the blues.

I do you think the performer who performs well, does he have to have had experienced all those things that he sings about, is that necessary?
D well not always, because there are actors, you know an actor don't feel like crying when he's crying, he don't feel like laughing sometimes when he's laughing, he don't be happy about something then he's looking happy about it... and all this is to ah act with so a lot of blues are the same thing because their trying to get that point over.

I you've done the job, in other words your standing up...
D yeah, your doing the job...

I I see, have you...did you ever hear Edith Wilson sing?
D I've heard her sing on record, cause Brother Montgomery always played with Edith, and you know that Bother has been my influence all my life, ever since I was a kid,

I well I think too, I think the world of that man, in fact I think I'm going to try to call him today, I hope...
D yeah, he's been half sick out there you know, I go by and see him ever so often you know.

I does he know that your in town today? Cause you understand that people are commercializing on the blues.
D oh yeah, I was about to say, the type of arrangements that they put to the music is what makes the difference in the music, and ah people commercialize on these different types of arrangements that make folks feel like their doing something different all the time.

I how often do you let your self go in the direction of commercialization, in other words you say well this is what they want to hear so I'll sing that for them, or do you say I don't give a damn what they want to hear I'm going to be Willie Dixon and I'll just...
D well I give them some of what they want to hear and then I give them some of my own ideas, you see that's why most of the times when I go on the stage its worth doing two shows cause I do several new songs all the time that they never heard.

I I see...
D and then if their doing ... if I got two shows, on the second show then I'll come back and do a lot of the things that they want to hear which is a lot of the old songs that they know about. Nobody ...they don't like no song until they've heard it and this is why I have to give them some new ones so that they can get the ideas out of that one, cause you see the blues have so much wisdom in them that most people don't realize the wisdom and knowledge that's in the blues. And when the people... a lot of the sales get made, youngsters always want to know where did such a thing come from? And when they go into looking into American music, the roots of all that is the blues, and all they got to do is look inside it and there it is and this is where it came from you know, but years ago people just excepted anything that you'd throw at them that's what they took, just like a little mocking bird in the nest everything his mama bring him he ______ _______. Mama bird drops anything and it don't make him no difference that's what they used to do but today you can't wash that down peoples throats. They want to know what exactly it is and where it comes from.

I I see, so you think is...we're better audiences today than we were in the past?
D definitely...because the more people get informed about the wisdom of the blues the more they're interested, and the world...this is why I say the world is actually starving for the blues and they don't know it. That's just like a man he's sick and he don't know what he need. He eat and he don't get the right vitamins but he's eating like mad and he don't know what he's getting. So once somebody give him the right vitamins he finding well this is what I needed all the time.

I well when your performing...now when I teach I tell my students now okay I've done my lecture now I'm going to do what I really like to do, I like to talk about some things that are Jim Stamford. Do you ever go out there and say this concert I'm going to sing this song, your program might have been A, B, and C, well I think I'm going to forget about that I want to do F and G because that's my favorite.
D well frankly I don't have no program properly arranged when I get on the stage most of the time. After I do a couple of numbers and I look at the audience and feel the audience then that's what I do.

I oh I see...so you tailor that performance to your audience.
D well sometime I do but then I feel like its necessary sometimes to let different parts which way the world is going so this is why I come in with various new songs.

I you carry the message, a message. What about singing...the difference between singing and I what to think about this for a while...and I ask all the blues singers, what is the major difference in response between an all black lounge type club audience and say an all white audience?
D well there is no definite... it all depends on what your singing, if your singing the type of music that the black club understands ah poverty, love and things like that they can appreciate you as well as anybody else, but when you go to sing political things or religious thing, then they don't understand those, if it's not in religious form because he been trained to believe about the various facts of religion and they all listen in one certain direction, and they all believe this, but white audience know the different between the two different types of music.

I but some blues singers feel that blacks have had a unique...well not only blues singers but some blacks and some whites feel that blacks have had a unique life. So when the blues singers singing about certain kinds of things ah you communicate more directly to the blacks because he's been there and he's known them, and he sings them. Do you believe that?
D yes... that's most of that older time poverty thing you know, like yeas ago and all the things like humiliation that people used to go through and all this when they was lonesome, but today they done got happier, so you don't want to hear about something that's lonesome and he's happy. It gets them in a different mood.

I what about when you'd sing about things like I go and knock on her door and she throws me out and she don't want me to come in no more, I mean I'm talking about a lot of different words, and I think most people when they hear these things they think about the black and the blacks relationships with other blacks, and do you feel that maybe in those lyrics that they probably are directed more to the black audience?
D well sometimes its directed to both audiences however it depends on who has that type of belief.

I I see...that's a good answer. Well...when you trying to ...let's say if you...tonight you go to Harper Collage, must be collage students... what are some of the songs you might sing for them tonight? Give ma a few titles.
D well just to start with I would sing a...you know since there a regular...such a political thing is involved here with the presidents and things like this you know the very described results to what happened while he was in there he's feeling and thinking about the conditions of the country and he got the mind of the world on the conditions on the country and the president so I think I'll sing ah... Everybody's in the World Have Some Kind of Blues, cause that admits its some kind of political thing, also it's become a religious thing, Aint no Pie in the Sky, things of this type you know. And I also sing some of the things they're familiar with you know.

I let me just throw some words out... if you were to walk to Michigan or to Rick's Café, are you familiar with terms like Sweet Lucy, ah Blady May, I'm trying to think of some terms that are truly black jargon.
D yes...well the words Sweet Lucy to most white people mean, wine you know or some of that kind of stuff you know one of those sweet drinks and that makes them drunk and Blady May is talking about cutting somebody with a knife or something like that.

I okay do you think that going to where your going tonight this Collage, if you sang some songs that had this type of message using terms like that would it go over...would you make it go over?
D well ah it all depends on how much ah ...comedy is involved see because such as that to me would be comedy or something like that but you don't want to get an audience feeling violent or a thing like that but some people will sing that because they don't know no better, but I wouldn't sing a thing like that in an audience like that unless I was trying to explain to them what the meaning of Blady May was or something like that.

I oh I guess that was my point... I think that you may be able to go into a couple of black clubs on the south side or lounge and sing songs using words like that and you wouldn't have to... you knew that they knew exactly what you were talking about.
D yes, but you see the narrow minded people I would say wither their black or white don't come out to hear violence and ignorance, they want to hear something with a little wisdom in it.

I I see ...so you think the blues singer has a responsibility to keep up with his audience and to give them something that has a message to them.
D well they will have as far as that's concerned and that what the point of music is all about, because music itself is internationally known any kind music attracts everything, but the blues has always been able to give a message along with the music. This is why the blues is of roots because when the blues came it not only did it bring the music with the world it also brought rhythm and these rhythm have been used thru out generations to per mote messages and not only did the rhythm of the drums and like that but it also gives a message as well, so when you think about the blues its giving you a message of the music which is sweet and moody and its giving you wisdom that you can read from my lips and those that understand drumming and like that this is why so many different beats drums that people don't understand. Just like I have this one song that I wrote too, and I wrote talking about the heart... the drummer he be hitting the heart beat like this, and you see these beats was delivering messages long before America and anybody else because they transported messages all the way across the continent of Africa with them, and this is why when half them slaves come here years ago they didn't allow them to tap on tables or anything, because they could deliver a message to each other with this, and so the blues is the root to all and the world don't know it.

I let me ask you some quickies... first of all how many children do you have?
D 12

I twelve...are they all here in Chicago or California?
D most of them are in Chicago.

I is it tough for a blues singer who has to perform and travel, to have children, and also do you feel somewhat guilty sometime by being away from your family?
D no, I think its good for them because.

I do they appreciate you more?
D yes its good for them and all it all depends on what kind of care they have at home. If ah...to inoculate to let a kid know early in life that he can't have all the things he want but he have to go find a living for himself and who ever he's responsible for being in the world.

I what's your youngest child...how young is she.
D my youngest child is thirteen...

I does he...ah she have an aspiration to sing or are there anyone...any of those twelve following in your footsteps?
D well a lot of them...all of them can play music for one...if they want to, but I have some that play and they don't want to and some that play and do want to and I have one of the fellows in my band...he play with me.

I oh one of your sons is in the band?
D yes, he just left form here you understand Butch he play with me but I had one of my older boys was playing bass with me for a while, but he decided he'd take off in another direction for a while, you know who it is. You know that you feel real well when you feel that you have gave the trouble to give them the things that they actually need and whether they use it or not. I know that everyone of my kids that want to can walk in any place in the world practically and sit down to a piano or guitar and some will start playing and somebody will say play more and more if he want to you know even make a living at it if he want to, especially if they know he Willie Dixon's child.

I I'm curious what are the names of all those twelve? Starting from the youngest going to the oldest.
D the youngest ones name is Jackie, she's a girl, she's thirteen, David...

I I have a David also...
D oh yeah...and ah I have Shirley,

I how old is Shirley?
D Shirley, she's twenty-two...

I okay Butch...
D and Butch and ah Pat; Patricia is her name, Pat.

I Patricia...
D I have Terry, Bob and Lewis and Freddy and Willie Jr.

I is Willie the oldest, Willie Jr. the oldest?
D right... the oldest...

I now where does he live?
D he living in Chicago.

I what do you think about the I don't know if its you or Bobbie McGee that sings the Seventh Son is that yours?
D yeah...

I okay, yours then. I should have known that who________ you probably forgot when you came to Washington you did the seventh son for us. Which is your seventh son or do you have a seventh son or a seventh daughter?
D oh yeah, my seventh was a daughter.

I daughter...okay do you believe in the seventh son the song that you sing about?
D well not but you see here is what... it's a oh pray that we use those biblical things you know this is one of the things you know through biblical history people have always believed in astrology and the different numbers and all that kind of stuff...so your right about the things include.

I what about The Suns going to Shine in my Back Door Sometime?
D well the Sun going to Shine in my Back Door Someday it means that you've been in poverty or been in bad a long time when the sun shines in your door its going to make it okay because you feel better with better inspiration and understanding.

I okay...what about Hoochie Koochie Man?
D well that's just like a Red Skeleton you know years have believed that they were smart and wise, people have believed that they get things before they come to pass, or like this the fortune tellers the gypsies and all this kind of stuff that was even back in biblical days also so it seems to relate all these things.

I well when you...I think of the Seventh Son where he's really tough is the Seventh Son the one you talk about how good looking he is and he's the best and he's the women and he's gods gift to women...is that the song you sang.
D yeah I know you got that part of it, in other words the seventh son, he got everything working for him and everything is in his corner.

I now, ironically you hear a lot of people writing about what those words mean. Some say well because the old days a man...a black man couldn't be all those things, but he could sing about them because while he knew he was...
D well in years ago black people didn't sing about the seventh son they always sung that when you talking about _______ come on and shine in my back door,

I oh there was hope in there...
D he seemed to think that it shine in his door today because he can move into any direction he wanted, in politics and hemisphere, education and everything.

I so that time is alive...the sun is shining in our back door today then.
D yeah...

I I see, you still have a home in Chicago, does that mean that you have a domicile here that you stay here and come back too or...
D well I have a home here, I have a couple of places, and I just bought a place in California last fall.

I in L. A.?
D yeah...not just L. A. in Glendale.

I Glendale, yeah I know Glendale. Now where do you vote from here or Michigan or ah where do you vote from?
D well I haven't established my political status so I vote here.

I so you're still a Michigan citizen until you've ______ any longer. So you will be able to then winter in the west coast and summer...
D well you see when you get to be a certain age the weather man do a lot of things to you then I have sugar diabetes so ah and I get extremely cold and I get colder than everybody else.

I well I know that...my family has a lot of sugar diabetes you're not on insulin are you?
D no, I was on it but I'm off as of now.

I what happened did you pancreas start...
D yeah...yeah I guess _____ did have.

I your mother died when?
D about six years ago, she was ninety-four then.

I now was she diabetic at all.
D no she wasn't a diabetic.

I so you haven't...unless your father had it you haven't really inherited this out of your family.
D I really don't think so well anyway I had it off and on for some years, but I think my weight has a lot to do with it, I couldn't get my weight down cause I had sugar, cause my weight isn't down now. The doctors always told me about having my weight down, but it was hard to get to that diet right.

I yeah that was my brothers problem. He was a football player in collage so he was about your size now but he never could get that weight down so he contracted diabetes, and I guess that's always one of the major causes sometime huh?
D yeah when your weight isn't down your pancreas can't get enough insulin to feed your body with.

I I see...so it makes it even more difficult. Anyone else, any of your children have diabetes?
D no....

I well that's good because ah sometime when the fa...one of the parents has it, it goes into one of the kids.
D yes well my daughter, the one that I was talking about, Shirley, I think she got traces of it, but I keep telling her she can lose it by losing her weight now.

I I see...
D the doctor told her that also...

I so they have to watch themselves, cause my family too they're out to eat too damn much so ah they gain weight.
D I know, the same thing here. Well like now...I eat breakfast but I have to eat a small amount all the time.

I so you really try to...
D I used to load it up there, I know my son he seventeen ...that guy can eat oh my, I look at him and I walk away and I say, man that's the same thing that drove me to diabetes.

I well those teenagers you know they...I think they know their going to live for a hundred years.
D yeah he playing football now in Glendale.

I well see they can eat that way, my son Todd, he's sixteen and David is ah twenty, but both of them played football so they eat; they purposely try to gain weight because they can be more powerful you know. But it's hard to take it off.
D well then I mean, you have to think about when you have to stop playing football and then the weights going to jump on you like mad.

I oh, that's what happened to my brother all that muscle went into fat.
D well that's what happened to me, when I was fighting, why I was way down I got down around 230 but the minute I quit fighting and was working down and on the road then boom it came.

I I can...that's what happened then
D well sometimes I weighed as much as 360 pounds.

I but your tall...how tall are you six foot two?
D 6ft 2in.

I you can put on weight now my height when I put on weight I look five by five.
D well you get to be a certain age it's better to be taking it off.

I how long have you been using the cane?
D oh I've been using a cane about seven years I got this leg here amputated.

I oh you did...you know very few people know that.
D well I don't know...I know it...

I well that's what's important, I know. Well did you have an accident or something like that, that caused it.
D no I had sugar diabetes.

I that's right you just told me that...so that's what happened with one of my mothers sisters, they had to amputate an arm or something.
D yeah I almost had to have this one off because I had a operation last year, I had ah, they took an artery up here and put it way down here in my leg, and it gave my blood calculation back before I get blood poising and the man says I'm doing very good now.

I I'm glad your out on the west coast because you need to be out there, my brother's in Arizona because he needed that warm weather, but he's so fat he hates it when it gets hot. So he's ______ _____ _______.
D well it's sometimes a hard job to just get up and eat one egg, a piece of toast and a half of glass of milk, and then for dinner you eat small portions you know.

I and since you travel too I'll bet trying to control your weight its very difficult isn't it?
D well... yeah, you see after this ah...well after I say around January I'll be staying in L. A. for a while because I'm promoting this Blue Heaven foundation.

I oh tell us something about that I didn't know anything about that.
D well I've been working on this for some year I just got a hankering for the glimmer for the Blue Heaven Foundation and I _______ the organization to promote the blues and also to give scholarship to the under privileged people with the Blue Heaven Foundation. And I'm figuring on getting enough collateral involved, whether they can build bigger and better places for the underprivileged and the blues and give them scholarships and all like this and try to get some of the songs of the blues that have been taken away from some of the people.

I have you tried to put all of the recordings and songs that you've written together and put them together in one place?
D oh I have all of mine put together now, at one time I didn't, but most of mine I have together. Now I'm working on a piece now will just about complete the job of all my songs and be my own publisher.

I and who's putting it together for you, your own company?
D well me and my manager works together you see, my mind and everything, you see Scott Cameron that's the one that you were just talking about...to him on the phone.

I I'm looking at the Blues Heaven brochure...
D I think the Blues Heaven Foundation is of Muddy Waters is ah...Muddy Waters Scholarship fund, Muddy Waters was the first one that signed up for the foundation, and he tell me about it some years ago.

I did you get ah...I was taking to Muddy Waters wife some time ago, and ah what's going to happen to Muddy Water's material and is he going to have any relationship with the Blues Heaven ah...
D ah definitely... this is what I'm telling you now, the Muddy Waters scholarship fund will be involved with the Blue Heaven Foundation.

I is Mitch Markenfield giving you the funds to set that up?
D he is involved in it too, but at the time that he first signed I don't think he was very much into it. There is also a halfway house donation of insterments from and the foundation plans to assist _________ and secondary and in high school, to complete such a musical insterment for students.

I I see just so they can perform on them?
D oh yes, yes... in other words we want to teach them the blues ____________>

I oh I see...all right...
D and also it was a historical recording that a lot of people, that had a historical recording that we really don't know who's who. And everybody in the world have had different music, taken away from the blues for generations. And the people that was involved in them have never reaped any of the benefits.

I exactly ...will some of these recordings be in all...will they be in a museum or a collection?
D oh yeah some of them will be in bars and museums and the thing about it is the people that's involved, you see a lot of these songs have a finance come in that the people don't even know about.

I Little Brother was telling me on the phone about a month ago that he got a check and he said it just happened to come out of the clear blue shy, and it was a song that he had written many, many years ago and finally it...it was covered by somebody else of course but finally he's beginning to get a check on it.
D well yeah, well a lot of times you see the people in those days a lot of times didn't know how to keep in contact with those, and at that particular time a lot of times there wasn't no B. M. I., and abscess and stuff like that. And then one time they didn't have no law that was coaxing the people to give the people their money and they caught them selves keeping it for them and their people and they would never look for their people to give them anything.

I Little brother said that he felt that some of the songs that you and other people have written, maybe when you first performed it you didn't even get much money out of it, but then it was performed by a white person and they made just hundreds of thousand dollars.
D oh yes, yes well you see this is what I'm telling you about the original blues as they was nobody would give then credit for playing anything a lot of times they didn't even log their programs a lot of times on radio and television, but today is a different day.

I well now we're beginning to realize how important you are.
D and also about copyright, publications and all like this, a lot of times they didn't copyright their song like that and a lot of people are claming these songs that aren't copy written them.

I so if someone would come hear you perform and they liked the writing of the music; the melodies and then it would come out under their name.
D yeah, and on top of that you see there's so many things in America that black people had, as a matter of fact, as you know black people made just about 85% of all the _________ on record, at the time they was making them a lot of times they couldn't read or write they didn't know nothing about no publishing company, they didn't know nothing about no patents either, and who ever found out these guys; hay you with the cotton picker, make another one of the cotton pickers and that was it, and I'll put your name on it as well, if he couldn't sign his name, put your X that's the reason there's X's on everything today because on all of the things years ago they'd have to put an X and the man who owns it would sign his name to it.

I and he got the money or the benefit.
D he got the money and the fellow that signed the X didn't get nothing. So they got such accustom to it years ago until every piece of literature that they had why they want you to sign then they'd mark that X there now for you they been doing it so long you know they mark X for you to sign that.

I is this Blues Heaven you think will be your legacy, I mean no one likes to talk about dying, we all know we have to do it, but due to fortune that you achieved such a deal and you've touched so many people do you want Blues Heaven to be one of the things that we remember you by besides all the great music you've done?
D well naturally, cause in the first place I have this organization and the laws of organization all the funds that's involved in the organization will go to the organization to promote more blues and give a better understanding of blues to give the other organizations that's informed about the blues on this brochure.

I if someone wanted to give money to this organization where, and I use very respectfully Mr. Dixon, you notice I've always called you Mr. Dixon this is the first time I called you Willie, you know we're taught that way. So anyway Mr. Dixon if we wanted to send money to this organization, where should we send it to?
D it can be sent to 822 Hill Grove Ave. in _______

END OF INTERVIEW