John "Dizzy" Gillespie
Part 1Part 2
S = Standifer
G = Dizzie Gillespie
D = Daughter
U = Unknown Guest
S So, Dizzie Gillespie is performing here,
at the uh, Billy's Pub in Atlantic City. And we're talking tonight about
him as a performing artist. Why do perform, Dizzie? Because you like it
or is there any reason? What drives you?
G <Laughing>
S Huh? <Laughing>
G Well, coming up in our, in ah, South Carolina
there weren't too many things open to us. So, ah, jazz just sort of, hit
the spot. I mean music sort of hit the spot. For us, so I just wrapped
in music that's why I thought about music all the time because uh, that
was my chance to do something I loved and to make a fairly decent living.
S Did you do this deliberately or did you
fall into music? You know, some people do it because they've been blacks,
they've sung in church, or played in church they have parents who were
pushing them, or ___________.
G Nope, I never have.
S It just happened.
G Yeah...<mumbling>
S Now, you were born in <city name was
mumbled>, South Carolina, ...
G ...um hum...
S ...right? How many in the family?
G I'm the ninth strong.
S The ninth.
G Um hum.
S Okay. Ah, how many brothers?
G Well, two of my brothers and sisters I
don't know where they were from they were daddy's babies.
S I see.
G But seven of us lived until 1934 that
was four boys and three girls. Seven up until 1934. And after 1934, my
oldest brother died and that left three/three. Three girls and three boys.
Now, I have two sisters that died. So that's only three males and one
female left.
S Huh. I read somewhere that you have/had
a brother you mentioned that he was once driving a taxicab around New
York. Is he still living?
G Yeah, he used to drive a taxi.
S What is he doing now?
G He's retired now.
S Oh, I see.
G ______________ 1930.
S You're the only one in music, though.
G Yep.
S Tonight, in listening to you, I heard
both your sets. As a musician, I was maybe cheating a bit because I was
trying to hear the chord changes uh, I was there maybe making some analysis
of what you were doing. Do you, as the kind of musician that you are,
do you kind of wish sometimes that people knew what you were doing musically?
Or, does it make any difference?
G You would have a percentage of people
that know what you're doing out there, so you have to admit they are there.
Where most of the time you're playing for people that don't know anything
about music, ah, what you hope for is to reach a repoire with them ah,
on another level. On ah, I guess ah, well, I don't know.
S On an emotional level maybe?
G No, it's another level I don't know what
kind of level that would be, though. I guess you reach them on a feeling
level. Just sort of feel, you say, ah, I feel what they're doing. Not
knowing what you're doing, but you feel something that's what you're supposed
to get out of it.
S I heard tonight behind me, one gal that
said 'I don't know what the hell he's doing, but ah, it sure sounds good'.
Now, on one hand, maybe that's what you're getting at. But, as a musician
myself, I sort of get an emotional and a cognitive and intellectual high
when I know that they can appreciate the chord changes or maybe the rhythm
changes or the fact that you have several rhythms going on at the same
time and all that and do you, when you go to colleges and universities
when you play what you think for musicians, does that give you any better,
more of a high than um, and I'm not fishing for anything but I'm just
curious...
G ...no, no, no, no... you appease you know,
like the guys that you're playing with... that gives you a certain amount
of... play something you know that you did it well. And then someone,
one of your peers hears it, makes you feel pretty good. <mumbling>...The
main idea, most of the people you play for are going to know <mumbling>...most
of your music is geared to try to capture those people and not to pulley
them down.
S So just because they...
G ...your audience <mumbling>
S When you are/were doing performances
at Mentons (sp?) is this when you're playing for your peers who, people
who can really appreciate and criticize...
G ...well, you will play for people there
too... people in an audience...
S Right
G ...if you play music that they can um,
that they wouldn't come to hear there wouldn't be anybody there and they
would _____. What I've been ______ _______ _______ it didn't make me no
difference.
S <Laughing>...why?
G It wasn't my job ...it wasn't, I was just
willing to sit in. <mumbling>.
S What's his ______ _____. Charlie Parker,
everybody talks about, Charlie Parker and Dizzie Gillespie. Um, and this
is not asking you to talk about Charlie per se, but if there is anybody
in this country and in this world that knows a lot about him musically,
I think it might be you. Um, was he as good a musician as everybody writes
about him and says?
G <mumbles the word... unable to decipher>
S <mumbles... unable to decipher>
G They haven't come to really appreciate
him fully, yet. They will be taking at least uh, fifty to seventy-five
years, a hundred years...
S Why is he such a self-defeatist?
G Well, probably because of the society
in which we live. It's a <unable to decipher words> crazy as society
in which we live it is elusive to making a thief out of you ...uh... you
know when you treat, I mean, when you uh, I'm not going to say, cheat
on your income tax but you do everything in your power to pay as less
types as you can. Now, there's some countries where taxes, people pay
taxes and go about their business <more mumbling> ...you know, this
is just a very corrupt a corrupt society so it tends itself and it lends
itself to that. You know, like a good example ...I was reading that in
the news the other day this young boy called "the runt" in Harlem.
He's killed about eight/nine people...
S Oh, yeah...
G ...he looks like a nice guy, you know?
But it's conducive that the environment is conducive to <mumbling>.
S But, why is it, now, presumably the musical
environment and the world that Charlie Parker was exposed to and perhaps
even grew up in as a musician and a professional you were, why weren't
you didn't you have the same problems?
G I didn't have the same problems, that's
all.
S Why didn't you have the same problems
that he had, then? Or, maybe you had them but you delt...
G ...you're talking about two different
people ...and I have a good wife and I have a wife all these years and
I wanted to stay with my wife and I knew that if I did all those things
that they were ______ and I wouldn't have them. So I say well, _______________________
<mumbling>. So that was one of the reasons, by having a good wife
and wanting to keep her...
S Well maybe she...
G ...she wouldn't go for it.
S Maybe you were saying that you were a
stronger person than Charlie Parker.
G Huh?
S Maybe you're saying too that you were,
you were made out of a tougher metal than Charlie Parker. Hey Charlie,
I'm, it's just a Charlie Parker now, not you know...
G ...oh well, I don't know ...I don't know,
I don't know <mumbling>.
S When I look at kids, I'm a teacher, right?
Uh, I have three children and I know darn well that one of my boys, I
have two boys and a daughter he's going to make it in spite of daddy.
I have another one he has some problems. I come from a family of ten and
my mother once said uh, Jo-Jo and _______ are going to do fine but if
I die the ones who get all the money is Bob because he's going to need
it. Now, this is in <doesn't finish the word> I think maybe Charlie
Parker was just um, some people just can't make it. They aren't strong
enough for this tough society. And it is.
G Uh, huh.
S And maybe he was just weak and couldn't
cope with the adversities of life. <silence> Do you consider yourself
a strong man um, emotionally, mentally? I'll tell you why I asked the
question in a minute.
G I can well, my religion teaches us to
have what they call radiant acquiescence.
S All right, explain that now.
G Well, radio acquiescence means when you
have acquiescence it means that whatever happens you say 'okay, all right'
but radiant means that you smile with it.
S In other words, you're saying that you're
able to cope with things inside without acquiescent it and say, 'hey,
look, well that's the way it is...'
G That's the way it is, it is <mumbles
out sentence>
S Maybe people like you in the business
maybe need some type of religion to keep them going. You had a wife and
a religion and maybe...
G No, just recently I had a religion that
was just recently ...but I've had my wife for forty years.
S So the religion is more less than adjunct
to what was...
G ...yeah ...after, after having someone
to help me all these years and then on top of that, running into a religion
that goes with the principles that you think should be <mumbles out
sentence>.
S Let me ask a personal question You mentioned
Lorraine every time I read something, I read Lorraine, Lorraine, Lorraine,
I hear about Lorraine you used to be married how long?
G Forty
S Uh, the toughest marriage, well, all
marriages are tough today, let's face it. It's very hard to stay together
these days and you have to work at it even harder now. But, um, are you
able to say that you stay together because of Lorraine or because of both
of you working it out together or because you just came to grips with
'hey look, these are the bad things in our life and here the good things
and if we can't cope with those let's go our different ways' or why did
you stay together? I'm a married man and I know that um, there is sort
of a compromise that we have to make of course. I'm not sure that they
always work but I want to be married fifteen (?) years. I'm not saying,
what is your secret, but forty years is a hell of a long time for a man
as much...
G Well we would have broke up many times,
you know, if my wife hadn't been a sterling character. There are many
things that the average woman would have left me ________ _______. You
got it brother. Several times ...in a marriage. If you let this ...it's
my wife. She's the one who has kept this together, so...
S She is the glue...
G And I appreciate it ...so, so I let her
know that I appreciate it so she sticks around.
S All right, let me ask In the time that
I've been able to observe you at close quarters, and on these last two
times that maybe see you more. You have a way of turning things off around
you which I think is kind of good. I wish I could do that. It's, do you
turn things off like that?
G Like what?
S Well, sometimes I notice in conversation
or even on the stage you performing, you're a showman, and I know what
it's like to be up there, but I think at times, after you do your thing
you walk off okay, you ______ ______ wipe your face, spit out your ___________.
Um, you seem to be able to turn "it" off and on ...life.
G Well, you, you have different settings
in your life you don't, I'm not a performer all of the time uh, like when
I'm home, it's a different kind of _______. I'm not the performing type
at home. You have many, many aspects to your life. So, you just deal with
them as they come ...whatever you need. Like if I want to play the slot
machine I'm a slot machine player. I want to sit and, whatever.
S You know, I have a sneaking suspicion
you as you have mystically called a Christian or a or a you're a religious
person obviously you can get religion without being a Christian as you
know, Jewish or whatever....
G ...<mumbles some sort of response>
S You believe in God is what I'm trying
to say, don't you?
G Yes, I do
S Is that a new thing?
G No, I've always believed in Him. The religion
is from later, but I've always believed that there is somebody, somewhere....
S ...I also think you believe in people.
I think...
G ...I believe that we are the nobility
of God's creation ...people. Who are made in the image of our creator,
with all of the attributes of our creator; only in much smaller doses?
S Are you pretty well capable of accepting
People who believe in people as I think you do, generally have a, not
a superior standard, but a, a standard below which you are willing to
accept certain things.
G I believe that you can look, you can develop
you're the goodness in you, the attributes to such a high degree that
somebody looks at you and looks at you and can see a halo hanging over
your head.
S I can't help but to say that I agree
with you because when this interview started, a year ago, I was going
to ask you about reading a lot of books yet, but I think I've read about
you but it's all in the books and, and um, something kind of strange about
you, frankly, and <laughing> I'm trying to figure out what makes
you tick, in a sense. Not what makes you tick, but what makes you Dizzie?
I'm, I'm uh, I'm sort of, not in awe of you, but I'm finding you're an
interesting person. You're a performer, you're a husband, you're a family
person, but I think you're also a people which...
G I love people, you know, I know, see I
feel comfortable with people. Especially with good people. In fact, when
I went to Cuba, uh, I left my passport on the ship. And I was just ready
to rush back to get my passport, and the guy on one, one person, 'Where
you goin', Mr. Gillespie?', I said, 'Man, I left my passport', he said,
'Awww, go ahead', like that. That was nice. And then, the _______ would
hug me instead of shaking my hand and I said, 'Oh, isn't that nice'. And
when I went out, on the ship, we went out, there were like three thousand
Cubans lined up out there. It was a sea of Cubans! And everybody was feeling
funny about it. Everybody on the ship you know, everybody was scared you
know <mumbling> you know, thought it was funny ...I ran right out
in the middle of the Cubans and everybody was giving me that look that
they were scared and I was right at home. I was at home. I was surrounded
by all of these Cubans, and I was like, 'Aw, yeah'. It was like they were
waiting for me too, you know? I'd been playing their music for such a
long time. And they were waiting for me to come down there, so, I ran
down there into the arms of all the Cubans. And I saw some guys on the
shore, on the edges, that didn't look like regular people ...they were
like security people or something...
S Um hum.
G ...members of the, you know, what's the
name, you know ...very solemn looking, but most of them were, 'Heeeeeyyyyy!'
you know?
S Well, Andy Craig (?) said something the
other day ...I've been um, frankly, I've been a little bit afraid of this
interview not because, I mean, I talk to people at your level and all
over and I've talked to a lot of them in the past few months, but he said
too, that you are a very special person. Ella said this to me in Atlanta.
And sometimes, people become bigger than life to you. Uh, I was reading
about your relationship with people, with people you perform with, Charlie
Parker being one of them. Um, as a musician, do you think you would have
been any other way if you weren't a trumpet player? Do you think, is there
anything in your life that could have put you in that direction?
G Oh, I could have <talking over one
another> being anything except playing music.
S Nothing at all?
G No, I think that <mumbling>
S So, you feel like you probably were born
to do what you're doing.
G God has endowed me with this, with a unique
talent. I had nothing to do with it But I practiced hard. I did do that.
But God has given me an eye to see, an ear to hear, and a mind to sift
with facts.
S So, in other words, you maybe vacuum
clean, but when it's all sifted out, you only use those things that are
useful.
G I hope so.
S That's what _______ said. He said, 'A
mind is such that it should take in everything, but if it's a really great
mind, the stuff that's usually is discarded (?)' you know.
G That's right.
S <Laughing>. And the stuff that
you're going to use, you use it.
G Um hum.
S Let me ask you one final couple of questions
here. For each of the persons that I've interviewed who are over sixty,
have expressed without them knowing it, really, not a fear of getting
old, but a fear of losing their musical skills. Especially if they were
a singer or if they were pianists, like Ube (SP?). Montudy Garland (SP?),
who died a few weeks ago, bass player, played with Kid ______ ______.
Um, I see Ella, she hasn't said this to me 'cause I haven't talked to
her, I see that she is a little bit, is fear. You say, you feel it. Do
you ever have tinges of that fear at all?
G I guess <talking over each other>
S That you can admit?
G ...that you're strong enough That troubles
your physical instrument. I don't know if I'd be able to, but I'm trying
to take care of myself physically now, but I'll do it as long as possible.
Until I can no longer do it, physically. I'll say, okay, you had a good
run, baby.
S You'll laid away
G <Laughing> Yeah.
S You know, I hope that too maybe. But
I'm convinced that musicians are like fighters ...even after they begin
to...
G No, no Well, now, you see, you don't need
to, you don't need to prove yourself 'Champion of the World' at all times.
S But you have to prove it to yourself.
That's You are you're biggest critic.
G No, you don't prove yourself as 'Champion
of the World' you, what, what you do as a musician, you pick out your
quintessence of what you have done. And you only do the same set; really,
meaningful that in your music And that will take you the rest of your
life.
S But see, you're at the top and you can
cheat. Especially when you...
G No, no, no ...the trumpet play more than
I do.
S What do you mean, more? You mean...
G Yeah, I mean, they play <mumbling>
young crowd do more than we did <mumbling>So, that doesn't bother
me. I know that hadn't been for me, it wouldn't have been them. It had
to come through that way.
S But that's the whole problem. It's worse
when you're at the top ...see, you're at the top...
G ...I'm not, I <talking over one another>
S ...when I say the top...
G ...I wasn't....
S ...not for yourself...
G ...I wasn't the competitor type. Roy _______
was very competitive. I mean he would roll somebody off the stage every
time he was unhappy.
S I found that...
G But for me, as I played, some body else
would play and then they'd play very, very well, and I would play, just,
well... I didn't care.
S See, that's why I keep saying you believed
in Dizzie. First, I mean, before whoever is up there. And, I don't know,
I've, in reading...
G ...before God?
S It seems this way... I think that you
said that if I believe...
G No, no, no... oh, knowledge, all physical.
Everything, you do with it, consent with our Creator, with His consent.
S Can you do that without believing in
yourself?
G I don't believe in myself right now.
S Can you say that believing in Him is
believing in yourself?
G No. No, that's not true. Believing in
yourself is not believing in your Creator. But, believing in your creator,
is also believing in yourself.
S Okay, maybe that's what I'm misunderstanding
in this whole... see, I'm sort of hung up almost like a person that's
eating so much and I'm fat with Dizzie Gillespie. And what I'm hearing
and feeling, God damn it, is someone who is not an egotist, but someone
who really says, 'look, I can do this and I can do it well, when I can't
do anymore, as you just said a few moments ago, okay, I'll put it on,
and I'll sit up and do something else, maybe'.
G True.
S But uh, that's a hell of a lot. I mean,
uh, and I think...
G ...I'm saying that, but you know, I'm
saying that and that's just the way I feel. Now, you know that...
S <Laughing>. Well, listen, thank
you. This has been a good interview. It's been um, well, let me ask one
other question... just for the record. We gonna have a lot of young kids
who are, well, we have a lot of young kids who immolated you. We've already
had old kids ______ the way you dress and everything. Um, reading is our
big problem. At the university, there's no problem. But, we have kids
coming to us junk street television station who play the hell out of things,
but they still have problems in reading. Did you start out reading?
G Well, yeah, I was a ____________ <mumbling>.
S What would you say to these kids who
are... I think that they think that being a musician, whatever, that means
to them is enough.
G Reading gains knowledge.
S And until they do that, I think they
are going to be...
G Yeah, they should.
S Thank you very much for this talk, Dizzie. I want to take a couple of still pictures of you and let you sign them, and we'll put you in the uh, it sounds like putting you in, uh, <tape ends>.
DIZZIE & DAUGHTER AT DINNER, part 2
S = Standifer
G = Gillespie
D = Daughter
U = Unknown Guest
<Jazz music playing loudly in background>
G This guy played with me, this guy played
with me, this guy played with me...
D That was in Atlantic City, not too many
years ago.
G Yeah... who's the girl, there?
D <music too loud to hear>...I mean
slap _______ <Dizzie laughing>. Look at Ohhh.... look at Bob Redcross
with his ________. I told you! (unknown person) Billy Eckstein, Nicholas
Brothers... uh, Curly...
S Bob was road manager for Bill Eckstein's
band, wasn't he?
U A long time
D Lord...
S <Laughing. Repeating Dizzie>...Lord...
D Lord....<Laughing>
G <mumbling>
U Now, you remember the drummer with ____________________________.
You don't remember that? Well that is when he was the trumpet player in
my band.
G I was going to say that...
U ...<can't hear over music>
G I remember that.
U Denzel Betz (SP?)
G You remember Audrey Armstrong?
U Sure, do I remember. Should have a picture
of her.
G Yeah, I saw her. I saw her somewhere in
the front here. She had a dancer's body.
U That was a long time.
G She had a dancer's body, this girl.
U Now, here's a picture of Dizz, Dave Brubeck
and myself. I'll bet you thought that you ______ ______, Dizz.
G <mumbling>They used to be like brothers...
these two here.
U Yeah, yeah...
G They look like brothers...
<everybody talking over one another>
U Now here's my man in the Apollo Theatre.
G Who is this piano player, right here?
U Where? Oh, his name was Lot <everybody
talking over one another>.
<Singing... drowns out all conversation>
S You know, Marion Blake was a pony. Is
that a small Polish girl? She said she was a _____ Marion Blake, Ube Blake's
wife.
U Oh, yeah, that was...
S In the Zigfield follies.
U Yeah.
G Ah, this is ______ _______...this is good
too.
U Oh, yeah, little _____ ______. What was
her name? Oh, I can't think of her name.
G He was good.
U Steve, from _____ _____ band, had messed
him up. He wanted to be a high note man. Did you see this picture of you
and Dave Brubeck?
G Yeah, yeah.
U Here some more, Dizz... some old stuff.
I had hair, there... look at that.
S <Laughing>
U <Laughing>
<all laughing, singing, talking over one another, can't decipher conversation>
G Who's that boy there?
U Lawry Pelton (SP?) He gave New York a
lot of good years.
G <mumbling, laughing, coughing>
U <can't hear>
G Who's that?
U Lydia Fitzgerald. They tell me this guy
died... this trombone player.
<break in tape... more music>
<talking over one another>
U Yeah, you remember Lou Mayo (SP?) we worked
together a long time, boy. That's Kitty Clark's brother, Frank.
G Yeah, I know.
U Frank Clark.
G Yeah, he got killed.
U Yeah, got killed on __________.
<talking over one another>
U ...landlord, there wasn't no hot water...
had to <talking over one another>...god damn rent, no hot water.
She called her husband <talking over one another> in San Diego sayin'
this musician is giving me a bad time, the man walked right in and shot
him.
S Oh, God.
U Right, right, right...<talking over
one another>...the old Fletcher Henderson band. Hello there, how are
you?
S <Laughing>
U This was my favorite dancer...______ ______
______. Yes, I really do. He's the first guy I heard say, 'Honey suckle
rose'. The Vie sisters. This is the one that drove Sugar Ray Robinson
crazy. I thought he was going to marry her, boy but that Danny Cox (which
one, the middle one? <don't recognize voice>) no, the one on the
top. Now, when you look at Velda Marie...
G Velda... YEAH!
U You remember Velda?
G Yeah, I went with Velda down to Philadelphia
in '75.
S <Laughing>
<talking over one another>
G Louise Falzon (SP?) There's what's his
name's wife.
U The drummer, yeah, yeah.
G Bish (SP?) _____ Henderson's wife... then
Laura, she was the little cute one, the one with the brown hair.
U That's right. That's my daughter, ________.
G Yeah
S What was her name at that time, her maiden
name? Your daughter's mother.
G Matthison... look at Tiny...
U I changed all of that after she made me
chase her
S <Laughing>
U So...
S Since I can't see that picture, what
is it about there? She's dancing, or...
U Oh, yes, that's her and uh ______ ______
there, ladies of the ensemble of the Zanzibar.
S Oh.
U <to Gillespie> you remember the
Zanzibar? You heard that she Ben Varie (SP?)
S Yeah,
U Well, Ben Varie is a carbon copy of this
man I'm going to show you here. His name is Abe Von-Long he's old man,
now. Everything Ben Varie does, and every move he does that's the man
that did it before Ben Varie <can't understand last of sentence>.
Yeah, he was ______.
U Abe Von-Long is his name... genius, genius,
genius. That's a picture of a guy when he was young, take a look at that.
When the girls said, "Hey, babe". This is one of my friend Jimmy
and Tommy. In the early years, this is way back in '31, '32.
<break in tape>
G Where is that?
U That was in the ______ crew. That's my
man in there.
G Oh, Lord! That's who that is!
U Yeah. <mumbles>
<someone's talking... can't make out sentence>
U Got it right here. He's the guy that wrote
that song.
S Oh, I see.
U Yes, sir. ______ _______.
G <can't decipher... mumbling>.
U What was this girl's name? Rose _______...I
remember her. She sure was pretty.
<break in tape>
U Used to do them sexy love boy/girl things.
S I just grew up in the wrong period of
time, that's all.
U No you didn't. These people were very
happy to be in show business.
S Life, probably too, don't you think?
U Well, not that. You can get up in the
morning and go to a deli and take your blanket and go to Central Park
and lay down and have some beer and some pretzels and wouldn't know how
to _____________.
S Yeah...
U You can leave your cameras in the car...
S And go back and get it..
U Yeah, but nobody robs it. But now, everything
is dollars and cents. So, they steel everything they get their hands on
and they don't give... here's that boy you was talking about, remember
that big black fiddle.
G Oh, yeah.
U There's ______ Lane, the girl he dance
with... after that ______ ______.
G You know, Audrey died, you know.
U I heard that she died... yeah.
S Audrey who?
U Audrey Armstrong, a very beautiful dancer.
I'll always keep this picture 'cause
G <shouts... can't decipher>
U ...first black picture in Life magazine...
Miss Lena Horn. Behind her, was Joe Louis, Life magazine didn't carry
nothin' black in it. I always kept that.
S When was that? About what year?
U It was way back.
S Like in the '40's, maybe?
U Look at Miss Horn. She just retired.
<break in tape>
U She Catholic?
<talking over one another>
S Were those guys playing together?
U Joe Henson (SP?) Band... that is.
S <mumbling> he put a stamp on music.
That picture you're holding, is that his band, there?
U Yeah, Louie Russell's band.
END OF INTERVIEW