Johnny Griffin

October 30, 1982

S = Jim Standifer
G = John Griffin

MG = mother of John Griffin
J = Jerry ?
D = Nathan Davis

S At the home of Johnny Griffin, Chicago, October 30, 1982, 432 E. 46th. Mr. Griffin has just completed performance here in the Chicago area and intends probably perform much more before he leaves for the West Coast, and eventually back to Europe and France.
We're in the home of Mr. Johnny Griffin. Am I spelling your name correctly when I say Griffin?
G Yes.

S Junior?
G I am the III, and there's a 4th and a 5th.

S All right, do you also have a middle initial?
G Yes. "A" for Arnold, as in Benedict.

S Johnny Arnold Griffin, huh?
G Well, actually "John" not "Johnny".

S John. Because I noticed in the encyclopedia of Jazz it mentions it as being John Arnold Griffin, III.
G Exactly. That's correct.

S Could you give us a little background? This is October 30 in Chicago on the South side on East 46th Street. We're in the home of John Griffin.
G Well, it's actually my mother's home.

S Your mother's home?
G Yes.

S Were you born in this general area at all?
G I was raised in this area, actually. I was born at Providence Hospital which is on 51st St, about 4 blocks from here. But primarily I was raised in this area right here.

S So this is our neighborhood.
G This is my neighborhood.

S Are there many friends still remaining in the area that you might know as you walk down the street?
G Well, not so many that live here now, but they're still in Chicago but they live further South mainly.

S If I ask you to take your glasses off, can you ___without your glasses?
G Yes, I can function very well without my glasses.

S Okay. Let's do that. I believe the last interview that I did with you which I'll share a little bit with you before I leave was without glasses, so when I saw you with glasses on today, that sort of surprised me.
G Well, the glass are myopic and that is for distance. I really don't need them in here because I'm not driving or anything. But I wanted to see you more clearly.

S Thank you. Well I put mine on because I can't talk effectively unless I have at least a proximity to my eyes. Tell me more. About how many years ago was it that you were born about 4 blocks away?
G I was born April 24, 1928.

S And also you said the hospital is not too far away from here?
G Yes. It's still there.

S Did you have any other sisters and brothers?
G I had one sister who died when I was very young-maybe 1 or 2 years old, actually, and I have a half sister who is much younger than I am.

S Now, is Ms. Betty Foreman your mother?
G She is.

S And Jimmy, is this her second husband?
G Yes.

S And what about your father, is he alive?
G Yes, my father is alive. He's living in Los Angeles.

S I want to stop just for a minute. If any of these questions become too personal or whatever, you're free to say so and then moreover, in the tape itself anything can be edited. But I'll ask you an awful lot. Okay?
G Great. All righty.

S We're continuing. Tell me about-when did you actually move from this area? I know that you started working with Lionel Hampton in 1945. That's right after high school, right?
G Yes, that's true. I moved from this area when I went with Lionel Hampton in 1945-in June 1945 to be exact-so when I graduated from DuSable High School which is about 1 mile from here. That's when I moved, because I went on the road with the band and from then on I spent the next-well, I'll say until 1951-traveling and mainly living more or less in New York City.

S Were your parents together at that time?
G No. My parents were separated when I was 4 years old.

S Was it difficult for you to get permission from-well had you been with your mother or father?
G I was living with my mother during the week days and my father on weekends.

S From whom did you get permission to travel since you were on the road at such a young -what 16 years old perhaps?
G Yes, I had just turned 17. Well I had permission from my mother because I spent most of my time with her. But, I mean, there was no problem.

S They saw the talent and wanted to give you the opportunity.
G Well, they thought it was great and an honor for a great musician of Lionel Hampton's statute to want me to play with his orchestra.

S Who were the first place that after having left Chicago - or did you play with him here before he left Chicago?
G I graduated from High School on a Thursday. I can't remember the exact date but it was around June 26 or something like that, and Lionel Hampton started at the Regal Theater which was about two blocks from here and we started, I can't remember if it was Thursdays or Fridays they started in the theater now, it's been so long ago. But anyway, by that Sunday I was playing with his band.

S How did he happen to discover you?
G Well, in January or February of that year they had a pep assembly for some athletic event at DuSable High School and Ham came over to the school, bringing Herbie Fields and I think Mel Butler with him and had a jam session with some of the students in the High School band. And I was one of those in the jam session and at that particular time Ham picked up a saxophonist the late Jay Peters and his band. I think they were playing in a theater called the Downtown Theater at that time which was down in the loop. By June, Jay Peters had been drafted into the Armed Services because the war was still going on-World War II. When he came back to Chicago he was in need of a saxophonist, so he remembered me and started looking for me when he arrived at the Regal Theater for that week date that he did there in June.

S Were you already union or did have to become unionized, or...
G Oh, no. I had a been a professional union musician since I was 14-actually, just before I was 15 years old because I lied to get into the union. But I was playing professionally on the South side, you know, like the T-Bone Walk at the Club Devisse, the Rum Porgy and Errol Brado who alternates for other big bands working there and I think I was about 15 years old then.

S What was the lower limit for becoming a union member?
G I think it was 15 years old and I remember lying when I was 14 and hadn't quite made my 15th birthday when I joined the union.

S What was your ___ salary, or...
G You mean when I worked there?

S Yeah.
G They paid me union scale.

S What was the scale then?
G Oh, I can't remember.

S How did it compare when after you went on the road to which you started ___ ___?
G Well, you know, it was very funny because I was actually before I joined Ham's band I was making more money just working on a Saturday night at the Persian Ballroom than I did with Ham's band for a whole week, because I had my own sextet and I mean, just in a set, you know, we played for young people, you know, high school students at the Persian Bar then at 64th and Cottage Road Avenue and just on Saturday night I made more money than a whole week's worth with Lionel Hampton's band.

S Well, at 15 or 16 you had already organized a band.
G I was 16 then.

S And you had a group that was organized and performing?
G Well, that wasn't the beginning because I had played with band called the Baby Band which was about a 14- 15-piece band made of my schoolmates and we played professional jobs around the South Side of Chicago.

S Was that usual both the Black and Whites that starts so early in groups and playing professionally?
G Well,

S If you were good enough probably?
G Yes. There was a lot of music around Chicago during this period -in the early 20s, and you see what happened was, you know, during the war a lot of the older musicians were in the services so that the young high school students who were in the union had the opportunity to gain the experience because they had these openings to play at these different functions whether it was for different organizations like the ____ Masons or what have you, or for dances for sororities, fraternities, or just the regular Saturday night dances at the different ballrooms. The Parkway Ballroom which is like one block back here on King's Drive which used to be the South Parkway, and as I said the Persian Bar Room that we had, the Savoy Ball Room where all the big bands used to come and play which is about 25 or 30 yards from the then Regal Theater which neither of them are there now, and the Savoy Ball Room used to bring in bands like Count Basie or Lionel Hampton's orchestra for dances or Jimmie Lundsford or any of the big bands of the day.

S Were those dances attended more by Blacks or were there people from all over Chicago?
G They were mainly Blacks, although there were a smattering of White people that would come, but like, you know, on the clubs, the clubs on the South Side, I mean is mainly Blacks because it was a Black area. But, I mean there was no problem. There was plenty of mixture. I mean, you could see Whites walking down the streets here like you don't see anymore. In fact, living only 3 or 4 blocks away over East to Lake Front.

S To the _____ this was also a Black neighborhood that did have smatters of White surrounding the peripheral?
G Yes. Definitely. They had a few Whites going to high school with me also.

S What did you do with the money that you were making as a 15-year old. You making pretty good, obviously. What most of the seniors do with the money, go out in droves or whatever? Didn't invest any of it?
G Exactly. Money and I have never been very good friends. I would take it and spend it with my friends. We'd enjoy it.

S Well ___ ___ I think he's to enjoy it and spend it.
G Mainly.

S To get that address for a minute, could you situate us in terms of where we are in Chicago and where your house _____, where are we speaking from?
G Ah, well this is 432 East 46th Street. This is the near South Side of Chicago. To give you, say, I say 432 East 46th Street, well State Street is the dividing line between East and West and we are about 4 or 5 blocks East of State Street and East of State Street, going further East, is Lake Michigan. And we are about, say, about 2 miles from the Lake. We are about-this is 46th Street, so we are about 4 miles from the Center of Chicago, the Loop which is the shopping area, where all the large hotels and the large department stores are and the great museums, the art institute and we are about the same distance, about 5 miles from the Chicago River which empties into Lake Michigan. We are about ...

S You're closer to _____ Museum, too, aren't you?
G Which was this?

S The Solom Museum over here on Hyde Park is it?
G Yes. Oh, yes, we're about 2 miles from the University of Chicago's campus.

S Have you performed on that campus?
G Yes, I have. I played at Mandel Hall 2 or 3 times, but it's been many years.

S Now that you're back, where are you currently performing?
G I'm performing in the Blackstone Hotel at a club called the "Jazz Showcase" which is run by Joe Siegel who has kept jazz in the forefront of the Chicago's music scene for the past 30 years.

S The Blackstone right across the street from...
G The Hilton.

S The Hilton, right.
G Right across from Grant Park. Right in the heart of ______.

S When people think about coming back to Chicago to perform jazz especially, what are some of the places that one thinks about coming back to and why do they come back to that area?
G Well, I'm sorry to say that all those places that I was speaking of before like the Persian Bar Room, the Savoy Bar Room, the Parkway is still there, but the big theaters like when I joined Lionel Hampton at the Regal Theater 2 blocks away, all of this is gone. The Tibley Theater is gone, the Trianon Bar Room is gone, which is a terrible thing to see because it seemed like it has really killed the aesthetics, the cultural life of the near South Side. There's nothing there anymore.

S Are you seeing that jazz is not alive and well in Chicago?
G No, there are clubs further south on 75th and 79th. There are 2 or 3 clubs out there and other places on Garfield Boulevard, but not to the extent that they were, say, 20 years ago, because, I mean, like I say you had the theaters, you had the ballrooms and they're all gone. It's just devastation. And then you had that area around 63rd Street-63rd and South Cottage-where you had at one particular time, say in the 40s and 50s and into the 60s when I went to Europe, you had, say around 63rd and Cottage you had 4 or 5 clubs just in the area of a couple a hundred yards. I mean, there was nothing unusual to have Miles Davis and Art Blakey, The Miles Davis and Art Blakey Jazz Messengers, or Max Roach, there was Amhad Jamal at the Persian Lounge in the Persian Hotel.

S All in one night?
G Yeah. For weeks. I mean ____ ____ constantly because the clubs were there-there were 6 or 7 clubs just in one small area. You know, it was 52nd Street was in the 40s in New York City. I mean, it was just live, and at the same time, those weren't the only clubs. They had clubs, the Southerland here over on Drexel Boulevard about a half mile away and different clubs over on Indiana Avenue, 49th and 51st Street. There were many clubs, and at the same time, the same token, you had many clubs on the North Side in the White areas that are gone also-small clubs where little young musicians could come up and gain experience in playing jazz music which are not there anymore.

S When you left with Lionel Hampton, describe your impression of Lionel Hampton from the point of view of a 16 or 17 year old, which may be somewhat different from your later mature years?
G Well, I always had the greatest respect for Lionel Hampton. The man is so - I mean he played talent show-line musician personality and it hasn't changed. It's always been the same since I've come to know the man and he's a great man. He's done much for young musicians because he's had most of the modern young Black musicians anyway, and White musicians, too, come to think of it because Kenny Mann played in his band. He was a saxophonist from this area that played with me in Ham's band after Arnet Carlson left. But Hampton is a great man as he still is and it's phenomenal the amount of power and energy that this man exudes and his vibrant personality that he expresses to people that everyone can feel.

S As a child that such options at that time, did you get a chance to perform as much as you wanted to?
G With Lionel Hampton?

S Yeah.
G No. Well, you see, it's a big band, so, you know, it's a big difference. Performing with a big band you can't just jump up and play when you feel like because, I mean, everything is ___ and Ham had a large program. I mean, Dinah Washington was singing with his band, Matt Green was in his band and when we traveled we used to have acts with us like the 2 Zephyrs and roller skating we had going on. I mean singers and dancers, so you know, it was a show, but I mean, I always had not as much as Arnet Carlson who was actually, he was like what you would call a straw boss and he was like Lionel Hampton's Lieutenant. He would run the band when Ham wasn't ______. But, during shows, I mean, I would always open the show playing "Air Mail Special" and in the show playing "Flying Home" ballad with the Tenor Saxophone of course with Arnet Carlson and now and then I would do something with the show. But, you know, for a youngster coming up, it was difficult for me because as a new musical hit would come out and into the scene, the music of Charlie Parker and Dizzy Gillepsie, which really turned me on, so to speak, and I wanted to play more because this new music really excited me and other young musicians at that time and it's still excites young musicians at this time. It seems to be as a renaissance of this music. So, I only stayed with Ham's band actually about 2 years on and off.

S What did you do then?
G I formed a sextet with Joe Morris a trumpeter who was with Ham's band for many years-about 5 or 6 years, and we got some Chicago musicians together and formed a sextet and went on the road.

S While you were with Ham's band did you make any recordings with him?
G With Ham?

S Yes, at that time.
G When I joined Ham's band, yes, I made my first saxophone solo playing "Harriman's Special" with Lionel Hampton. I think that was made in December or January 1946.

S Was that an album?
G No, because in those days, you know, were 78s. And I really can't remember what the original record looked like, but it was a Decca record. I mean, I remember making a solo on another record, "Tempo's Birthday", tempo being Gladys Hampton's dog. And I did 8 bars on that. I made records with Ham playing back then with Bing Crosby.

S Are you identified on the recording as part of the personnel?
G Yeah, but I don't think they put the personnel on the record. They didn't have enough space because Ham had a huge band. So I don't think the names of the musicians were on that record. But they reissued it in LP form-someone told me and someone sent me a cassette of it, and they did have the personnel on it.

S Now, we have at Michigan the largest jazz record collection of 78 RMPs in the country and jazz music, so we want to look for that and we probably should look for something done about 1943, maybe?
G No, that's too early. It would have to be the end of 1945 or 1946.

S Okay.
G Or 1947, because those are the years that I played with Ham.

S And you played with one of the_____. What's the name of the song again?
G "Air Mail Special".

S And you played about how much of that?
G Oh, I played a full chorus-32 bars in that.

S Oh. Okay. Well, we're going to check that out and see if we can find that and put that as a part of your "The Johnny Griffin Section" that we have in this collection.
G Ahhh.

S Did you find - did you want to record more when you were with Hampton? Did you find that difficult that might have motivated you to move to grow more, or what?
G No, it wasn't that. What motivated me was I wanted to play some other music, because, you know, playing with a big band you have to play the same music all the time. And Ham, these _____ of Ham liked to open the show with "Air Mail Special" and close the show playing "Flying Home". That was standard. So it wound up that, you know, for week end and week out when we were playing theaters, that's the only tunes that I had the chance to really improvise on. And then actually there was never ____ ride because once I got something pat to play, it had gotten to be standard. At that time, Lionel Hampton was so popular, you know, the 2 most popular Black bands, they were Ham's band. No, Ham's band and Louie Jordan's Timpani Five.

S Louie Jordan? You're kidding?
G No, I'm not kidding. I mean, because Duke Ellington and Count Basie, but Ham's band was far more popular to the public because Ham really had a show. It was very exciting, Ham jumping up and down, and parading with the band through audiences with the saxophone section following him and the brass section going in another direction, you know, it was almost like-I hate to say it-but it was really almost like a circus.

S But the Louis Jordan, get back to that for a minute because there were contemporary bands that we think of historically as being more important.
G Yes. Important musically, perhaps, but I'm just talking about in this theme of the publics and people coming around seeing the show, there was no one any stronger than Louie Jordan's Timpani Five in those days because they would pack baseball stadiums I'm telling you, and Ham would too. Now, the intelligential are the people with good taste and really listen to the very best in jazz music, of course, will listen to or go to see Duke Ellington's band.

S Was it Louis Jordan who did the "Caladonia"?
G Yes. Definitely. Oh, hit after hit after hit. I mean really, hit after hit after hit.

S And you'd plug it in.
G And you'd hear it playing on all the stations-the White stations and the Black stations-at that time because you know the Black music was relegated to certain small stations. But I mean, you'd hear Louie Jordan on all stations.

S Does the jazz saxophonist, especially in those days, have the same problems with maybe some of the other-especially vocalists-with the cross-over records and the race records where maybe the Whites would do the same tune perhaps and become more popular and recorded more because it was performed by Whites more?
G Well, not so much in jazz. Not so much in jazz, but Louie Jordan's tunes, when they did "Caladonia". Of course you heard Louie Prima do it with his big band. But that was Louie Jordan's music.

S That's what really motivated the question because, you know, that happened so much with Louis Jordan, I was wondering since it was a contemporary thing whether having jazz...
G Only, I think at that time was Louis Jordan, especially Louis Jordan. He might have had some by Bruce Manly coping maybe say, The Ink Spots, or the singing groups as such in those days, but not like they did Louis Jordan because I'm telling you his music was so humorous, and it could pertain to not just what you could say a Black society in the American society ____ ____, but it was just humorous to listen to the lyrics so anybody could use his music.

S Next, I'm going to digress again and do something we call crippy for historical facts, etc. The night after you left Lionel Hampton, what was your first recording after that-whether it was 5, 4, 3, years, or did you do very many recordings?
G Oh, I made some recordings. Now, I can't think-the first we did after that was never released, then we did something for the Messner Brothers on a now defunct album record company by the name of Aladdin. And I can't remember the music, but I know we did a date and we were paid for it, but I don't ever remember this music being released. Then we did something for OK records, which was released. I can't remember the music. I'll tell you something that's interesting. We started-______ and I started with the first artist that we recorded for and that for Atlantic records for Herb Abramson, Arnie Durdigan and Meriam Davinson; Arnie Durdigan being, of course, one or the owners of the Cosmos right now and all are multi-millionaires.

S Now, if we wanted someone to do research on this and they will, of these albums. We have OK and Aladdin, we do have some Aladdin ...
G You check that Atlantic also, because we made the first record for Atlantic.

S ...So what's the years again that we should look for?
G Well, that should be 1947 or 1948. I can't remember exactly.

S And if your names aren't on these albums, who would...
G My name is on the album.

S ____ ____ .
G Yes.

S You mentioned Joe Morrison...
G Well, actually, like I said it was Joe Morrison's band featuring Johnny Griffin, but we actually recorded it.

S What about the club dates during that same period? What were the-52nd Street...
G Oh, definitely, because we worked on 52nd Street. We worked on 52nd Street, for instance, at any particular time with Philly Joe Jones on drums, Elmo Hope, and Percy Heath with Elmo playing piano and Percy Heath playing bass, and Matthew G. on trombone, Joe Morrison was ______, of course, trumpet and tenor.

S Who was on the ______? Jimmy Ryan wasn't there then, was he?
G Well, we worked-the 3 Deuces on 52nd Street opposite Oscar Peterford, J.C. Herd and George Shearing when he had first arrived in America, and that was his first gig, and the 3 Deuces worked opposite him, I think it was 1948. But, I mean, there were plenty places. We worked opposite Lucky Miller and his band in the Savoy Ball Room. We worked opposite Dizzy Gillepsie's big band at the Savoy Ball Room in Harlem, of course, in New York City. We made tours all through the South as far South as Key West, Florida. I mean, you can't go any further south.

S This is in 1948?
G This is in 1947, 1948 and 1949.

S Did ya'll play for White folks as well as Black folks?
G Yes. This is really weird, too, because I said to myself "we're playing in a tobacco warehouse in Carolina". They would either put a rope down the middle of the ball room and the Blacks on one side and the Whites on the other, or they'd let the Blacks be in the middle and the Whites had to sit down and listen on the side. Well, even with Ham's band, of course not in Chicago, but like St. Louis and Kansas City, we played in Sportsman Stadium in St. Louis and the ball park in Kansas City and one night was for Blacks and the next night would be for Whites or visa versa. It was like that. I mean, you know, and going out into say to Omaha or Oklahoma, the same thing. It was no mixing.

S When did you feel that you were at a stage where you were really growing, you said you really left-you didn't say it, but my interpretation was that you left Ham because you didn't have the opportunity to grow because of the nature of the repertoire and you had to play certain things?
G Well, yes, the repertoire that was being played. Now Ham had the music. He had one of the most extensive repertoires-but like I said, we always got stuck with his music, Ham's Boogie Woogie and the show tunes. Now we'd get a chance actually to play more music than we played dances. But then, too, it wasn't quite what I wanted. You see, I've always felt like I wanted to play like with just the rhythm section, just the way I'm playing now because I had more freedom having seen - Gene Allis was the cause of me choosing saxophone to play, because I saw him playing with King Colax' band and it was at the Parkway Ball Room around the corner here.

S When?
G This was in 1941 in June when I was graduating from Grammar School, the Forest Hill Grammar School, which is down on 45th and St. Lawrence, which is about 3 or 4 blocks from here. My graduating class was having a party at the Parkway Ball Room which was new at this time, and King Colax had a band there and when I saw Gene Hammis(?) playing tenor saxophone, that's when I decided I wanted to play saxophone.

S Did you have a sax at the time?
G No. I had a few piano lessons which I'd play piano in church, Sunday school some times and steel guitar or Hawaiian guitar, playing all Bing Crosby's "Sweet Little ____ ___" or maybe at the church playing "Old Black Joe" or some church music, you know. But no, I didn't have a saxophone.

S Have you heard things that Gene _____ recorded?
G I hadn't heard him record, no, but I had been listening to ___ music all my life, because there was always plenty of music through both of my parents-my mother's side and my father's side-plenty of music.

S Were you able to see the special on Duke Ellington hosted on the Arts station Thursday night? It was he, John Williams, not John Williams, what was his first name? The blues singer?
G Joe Williams.

S Joe Williams, Sarah Vaughn, Tineakly(?), the jazz violinist, and it was quite a ____.
G This past Thursday.

S It was on PBS for one 1 hour.
G No, I had no idea.

S And he went through every bit of his music from the beginning to the end and they had Mack Schroats was the artistic director on the show.
G Oh, my goodness.

S You said you played with Mack Schroats, didn't you?
G I never worked with Mack Schroats, but we played in jam sessions.

END OF TAPE 1, side 1

TAPE 1, side 2

G ....just different distributors and blah, blah, blah, and then they called up _____ Ollie made a speech saying that "yes, and we would like you to know that", none of this would have been possible. No Atlantic records without this young man, this saxophonist, Johnny Griffin. And these people didn't know who I was. By that time I had been living in Europe for 11 or 12 years or something and I had some hit records, I was just there, you know. And he introduced me and he said, "Yes, and now we have Johnny here. We want him to know that whatever he wants to do"-because at that time he didn't want to play rhythm and blues, he wanted to play jazz. He went on, he played this, or the blues, or whatever it was, "and we want him to know that now all he's got to do is contact my secretary and we will do whatever he wants to do musically" you know as far as making records is concerned. Of course, I never called his bluff. I was sailing. I was just sailing. But this is really something, to see something, an organization, to grow like that because I remember Arnie when he was working in a record shop in Washington and when they went to New York and they could hardly pay their hotel rent, you know. Now these people were the jet set, they own the New York cosmos, the Socrates, and I don't know how much, you know, he and his brother Neshu.

S Who brought all this together _____ _____?
G Well, it was for Atlantic. It was Atlantic records' 25th Anniversary party and I think it was 1973. Yeah, because I think I moved from Paris to a little village in Holland that year and I was just there, because my wife was in Harlem at the time and I was there closing the apartment up. I had just done a record session with Dizzie Gillepsie. So, I mean, you know, it's just something to see something grow like that, you know, cutting out the records which is a huge enterprise right now.

S Who keeps _____ materials as you develop? I mean we usually don't start keeping stuff until _____ _____, but do you have your wife do your scrapbooks, or your mother?
G Oh, my mother had a very extensive scrapbook of my experiences of musicians that I played with, especially from the Hampton days up until the 1950s, you know, when many photos. There were quite a few people that would come by and utilize it when they wanted to do some ______ and delve into some of the historical things that I've been involved with, you know. Then, I have some things in Europe also-many photos and other paraphernalia-from my years in Europe.

S We want to go on record to let you know that _____ this collection can and will do anything you need to be done with your materials to keep them in a best of circumstances. I'm sorry you didn't get a chance to go...
G I don't understand what you're saying.

S The collection for which I'm doing this video taping now,
G Yes.

S We're in a position to house, keep and show your materials very well if we can get them. For example, even if you need them, collected and we have a staff that whose responsibility is to collect clippings from clipping services here that does just that. So, if at any time both either your mother and whoever collects most of your materials, we'd like to-it's to our advantage, of course, to have things on a person of your stature.
G Ahhh.

S And we have the mind to do it.
G Well, I actually never paid too much attention to clippings and things, but since I've been back in America, I've been, you know, clipping articles out of newspapers as I get reviewed different places, because my press agent, or my management, has been using them to make brochures, you know, to send to different people who have no idea who I am or what I've done, or what I'm doing, actually. And I don't have-it's a pity-but I don't have any old records or anything. I don't even know how many records I've ever made or with whom, you know, because it's been-I know I recorded extensively during the 1950s and during the 1960s with many people and I have no idea how many records I've made.

S We have a computer search going on you now so we're hoping we got albums of all your recordings. It's being done by the University of Michigan as a result of _____ that I did with you. But anything that you can ever come up with or have leads for them will help us.
G Yeah, I will certainly let you know. Sure. Now that since you think I'm getting older and grayer, but I can assure you there's a whole lot of life left here.

S Well since then I wish I had somebody that thought of me to collect my stuff.
G Well, this is a phase where I had ______, because I never took this serious, you know, because actually what I'm involved in is learning more about music so I can express myself better, so I spend all my time going in that direction, not collecting anything. Because I've never collected anything until I got in trouble with the Internal Revenue Service where I had to keep all these receipts from taxes and all that stuff or I'll get in trouble.

S Well, it's like everything else though, we usually start saving things when it's really too...
G Too late. Yeah.

S ...and you don't know where they are, but if you're lucky enough to have somebody in the family or an agent or whoever can collect these things for you and put them in place where they can be preserved-- like the records they warp and you need to keep them humidified. So, if you're lucky enough to get a facility and it is at your leisure that we desire what we do with them. They're there, but they're also for public, and if you need them for whatever purpose, then it's our responsibility to get them to you. And who knows, there'll be a life of John Griffin one of these days. Jerry has some questions to ask you. Jerry, won't you ask some now.

J All right, just one or two. You alluded to your time spent in Europe and you were one of a large number of American jazz musicians who moved to Europe from the United States and probably in the late 1940s and 1950s. Could you tell us when you went to Europe and perhaps the reasons why you did?
G Well, in the first place I went to Europe-I actually went to Europe, went to Paris December 12, 1962. Now, Riverside Records is the company I was recording for at the time. They tried to get me to go a little earlier, but I wasn't that interested in going to Europe which is remarkable because of the fact that I'm still living in Europe after 19 years. But, the president of Riverside Records at that time was Bill Raleigh who was not really someone that I was hanging out with because Oren Keaton was the vice president was the one that I spent most of my time with-my relationship was the greatest. But Bill Raleigh invited me to lunch one day in New York City and he told me "Johnny, I guarantee you if you go to Europe you won't want to come back." I said, "Com on, you've got to be kidding." And I'm in New York City, you know, why leave heaven, which is funny, because then I went to Europe in December and I spent 3 months there and I came back to New York City. I actually spent 2 months on the East Coast between New York and Philadelphia, and I went right back to Europe on May 1963. But it was for many different reasons. First of all, it was because I felt that I was in a dead-end in America. I couldn't go any further. I mean, I had these agencies in New York City who could decide how much money how far I could go and how great I could measure up to them. I could take it or leave it. I mean, it was just that cut and dry. And it's still like that to a certain extent, I'm sorry to say. And then the music that the so-called jazz critics and disc jockeys were probably giving at the time for jazz to me was some music that I liked or that I could relate to at all, which turned out to assume that they call the avant guard or "free jazz". And I'm not going to call any names, but anyway, this is what was happening. And my family was breaking up. My wife and I had decided that we couldn't make it and very importantly so is because my children-because I had 3 kids then-had been sent back to New York, to Chicago, and my mother had them, so I knew that they were safe, so I was able to go with a free spirit to Europe and do what I had to do. Then, also, there was this-the way that I had never ____ in New York-the way that the people, not only for myself but other jazz musicians, whether they were Black or White or indifferent, going to Europe is quite an experience because of the way that the people accept you there for the establishment is such that it's a good feeling, because you're put on the same level as classical musicians are on. And in America it's not the same at all, as you know, although this is America's classical music.

J In recent years, there have been a number of musicians that have gone to Europe who are now coming back to the United States. Can you tell us maybe why that's happened? Have the opportunities to play over there diminished?
G I only know one musician that has come back and that's Dexter, and it's because of Dexter that I'm back here more or less. Dexter was trying to get me to come back. If I could play in Chicago...

J Is that Dexter Gordon?
G Dexter Gordon. Yes. A great tenor saxophonist. He had been trying to get me to come back anyway to play in a club here on the South Side called "The Apartment". But it was never worked out, so I never came. But I mean other than Dexter, I don't know any of the other musicians that really lived in Europe for a long time, other than they are coming back playing, but not to move back to live in America again.

J Who are some of the musicians that you've been working with in Europe over this period of time?
G American musicians?

J Yes.
G Oh, well, first of all Kenny Clark who's been there forever. He's been there since the early '50s anyway. Art Taylor, Kenny Drew(?). We arrived around the same time. Dexter was there in 1962, Kenny Drew came around, I think, in 1961, Art Taylor came in after I did in 1963, although he had been there in the '50s with Jackie McClain and Don Byrd on the tour with Walter Davis, Jr. and Doug Watkins. That was 1957 or 1958, or something. But Art Taylor lived there. In fact, he's still living there more or less. Then there's E. G. Sumamon, there's Shahib Shahaab. Now, they live in Copenhagen-Kenny Drew, Shahib Shahaab, E.G. Sumamon and Dexter, of course, he lived in Copenhagen.

J Did you guys get together occasionally?
G Oh, we worked together. Sure, because, I mean, I was traveling all over Europe and at certain times I did live in Paris also. That's where I spent most of my time. beeping That's my watch.

J Your beeper?
G Yeah. Let me see who else. There was Leroy Wright who lived in Berlin and played in the radio band in Berlin. There was Carmel Jones who was in the same band there. There were a lot of musicians in the radio bands there in Germany. Let me see who else. Then many have had _____ _____ over there.

J Are the European jazz musicians on a par with the American musicians?
G In playing jazz?

J Yes.
G Well, no, they could hardly be a par. Well, it depends, too, now, which is a phenomenon that you can find-I don't know if you know him, which you probably do-Neal _____, Kenny Peterson, a bassist. When I met him he was about 15 or 16 years old and he was a big time up there as he is now and everyone knows him all over the world from the work that he's done with Oscar Peterson. But in Denmark, it seemed that these bass players come out from nowhere and they don't play like Neal does. They all have their own styles of playing, but they are all great. They all have different musical backgrounds, different musical instructors, but they all can play. But you don't find, you know, I mean, this is low country of about 4 or 5 million people, and they have all of these bass players and they're all fantastic. We have a few good ones in Sweden, too. But, through the years I found the general level of jazz playing in Europe to have grown so much since I've been there in the early 60s, and I think that was because of the interaction between American musicians passing through, like myself and others that come and go. And you have the profusion of the jazz festivals there now, whereas, musicians are all mixed up.

S Do you know Cleo Lane?
G I know Cleo Lane very well. I've been to her home in England and I know her husband very well. When I first went to Europe I played in front of his band - Johnny Dankworth. I played doing some special programs with him in England.

S She was in Detroit and she pretty much reinforces what you're saying about the European jazz musicians.
G Well, in England you had very good jazz musicians, no matter what instrument it was, most of the time, but you know, like other countries like in Norway, you know, and I remember going up to Norway and had to play with the Norwegian radio band_______ or with Norwegian musicians in general, you know, they tried their hardest, but how could it be if they haven't lived to speak like an American or to be infused with the vibrant hardships of this compolistic(?) society here so well protected. Well, listen, I've had musicians in Holland that tell me that they wished they had come up and grown up in Harlem, or in the south side of Chicago or wherever in these Black gehtos or wherever so that they could have the spirit to play, but they've been so well protected in their societies that they don't have this fire that, I mean it's not necessary to have all this fire, but the way that I like to play the music, to put this fire into the music, you know. Not that they haven't had any hardships in life, but it's a different thing, of course, altogether. The culture is different.

J Social upbringing puts a certain influence in your art.
G Yes. They've never had that competitive thing like we have here, you know, like when Frank Fawcet came over here from Detroit, you know, we had these blowout jam sessions and other musicians, you know, Billy Mitchell would come over. I remember when I came from the Army, which is a funny story to tell, I came from the Army --- I got out of the Army in 1953, I think, in October when I came home over there in the south side, and he says you know this guy here is Billy Mitchell from Detroit to come to take over Chicago. I said, what, where is he. What club is he in. So I went to the Cotton Club where Billy Mitchell was playing, so I went up and made this jam session. So he looked down at me, cause he's a much larger fellow than I am and he said, "Okay, we'll divide up Chicago. You can have half and I'll have the other half." Of course, it was a joke. But I mean you always had this friendly competition among all the saxophonists in Chicago or wherever-Sonny Rowlings used to come here to Woodshed from New York. Sonny Stitt was a _______, Sonny Stitt is the exact-he's the one who really made me get stand in the corner to learn how to play my saxophone because he used to drive me completely crazy. I mean, he was such a master musician. I mean, really, you know, and these kinds of things. So they didn't have things like this in Europe. Not to that extent anyway.

S I'm going to bring your mother in since you mentioned her earlier here and I'd like to talk with her if you'll go get her. I'll appreciate it.
G I'll get her. Hey mother.

S I got so excited when you mentioned Sonny Stitt, I think I cut the thing off.
MG Maybe you'd like to have a bottle of coke? Cup of coffee?

S This is fine with me.

J Yes, we're fine.
MG You don't want anything? I can't twist your arm?

S You might be able to twist my arm when I'm finished, but right now I'm going to - forget it, John,

J Maybe a cup of coffee when we're finished.
MG All right.
G Maybe we can have something that I can wipe this off with.
MG What, baby?
G All your care and protection, I had to spill _______
MG I'll get a paper towel. We don't have any priceless stuff-only my 3 chairs out there.

S That's what my mother says, too. She's had it in the family so long.
MG Yes. Those 3 chairs there. We've had them. I'll bet you've never seen anything like that.

S I haven't.
MG No. But you've never seen anything like them.

J What are those called. I was looking at ...
MG Well, it's 2 chairs and the love seat. That's what it is, but we've had them ever since we've had the house. We moved in here in 1921. We've been in this house 61 years.

J Have you, really?
MG 61 years ago we moved in here. And the Assistant State Attorney Bristow who sold us the house sold us the living room furniture. Maybe here 61 years before we bought it.

S These are beautiful old houses.
MG Yes. I could move, but I won't move. I'll just stay here.

S You said from 1921 you were here?
MG Yes. We've been in here 61 years. Yeah, Johnny used to slide down the banister when he was a little boy.

S Was it your mother who just recently died?
MG Mother died on the 13th of August. She was 101.

S That's terrific. Oh, excuse me. Are these your grandchild's?
MG No. Those are not Johnny's. Those are my Godchild's shoes.
G I'm going to leave you for a few minutes.

S Go ahead. We're going to talk with her.
MG Those are my Godchild's shoes.

S I'm going to ask you to move back just a tiny bit so we can get the light.
MG Certainly.

S We Black folks better with the light. Are you leaving?
G I've to go get another _____

S I didn't take your picture a while ago, did I?
MG No.

S Well, I have to get it.
MG Okay.

S Why don't you sit down here with Billy.
MG Would you like me to sit in the chair?

S No. That's a perfect picture.
G It'll be bad enough anywhere you take it.

S Just one more. Were you with her in 1921?
MG No, no, no, no. We married 35 years ago.

S 35 years? My goodness.
MG Well, you see, Johnny is 54.
G Thank you. See you later.
MG Now, that's my second marriage.

S Okay. What we're going to, Mrs. Foreman, is to ask you a few questions about
MG about Johnny.

S Johnny, and your life. And I told him these tapes will actually go into an archives at Michigan which we're trying to collect materials on Johnny. Someone should and no one is. So, I talked to him in Ann Arbor and I said, "Look, the way you are you've cut the scrapbook, but we also want to collect it in such a way that we can put it in a museum and keep it under glass, you know, like the way it should be so that when my grandchildren and my grandchildren's grandchildren come along they can read about Johnny Griffin. It's there and it's going to last forever.
MG This is like with my mother. We came here. We're actually in Chicago 63 years on a rain check. We were on our way to Flint, Michigan.

S Okay. Can you repeat that so...
MG I said we are here 63 years on a rain check. We were on our way to Flint, Michigan two weeks after the race riot in 1919. Now, my daddy, the war had ended and he had been a carpenter for the government and he wound up in Flint, Michigan, and we were to go and join him in Flint. There were no houses available. So we came to Chicago, stayed with his brother at 36 & Indiana, and when dad couldn't find any place for us to stay, he came over and joined us in November. And we've been here ever since. Been here 65 years.

S Now, this is your father.
MG Yes. My father. My father.

S And how many children did your mother and father have?
MG Just 2.

S 2 girls?
MG 2 girls.

S I see. Both of you living?
MG We're both living. I have a sister. She's a retired school teacher. She taught 31 years.

S Is she here in Chicago?
MG Yes. She has a condominium out at 69 & Jeffrey.

S I see.
MG She has one son. He's a colonel in the Air Force and is at the Pentagon. I have Johnny and a daughter who is a school teacher by this husband.

S His half sister. What's her name?
MG Letha _______.

S She's here in Chicago, too?
MG She's here in Chicago.

S You're very fortunate to have your family right here in the same town with you.
MG That's right.

S Do you see them often?
MG Oh, Letha just moved. She was here with me for two months. She just moved out to the Meadows just a couple weeks ago.

S I'm curious. Are you a church going lady?
MG I am. I've been down to Kelly United Methodist Church and I tell them all the time I'm really not Methodist, I'm Baptist. My husband was always Methodist. He joined a Baptist Church when we got married, but when we decided to change churches, I joined up with his Church 30 years ago. But right around the corner is Ebenezer Missionary Baptist Church.

S Is that Mr. Dorsey's church? He's at Ebenezer isn't he. Thomas Dorsey?
MG I don't know if he belongs there or not, but if it is, it's around the corner.

S I see.
MG But we first joined the Pilgrim and then when we moved in this house in 1921, dad changed our membership to Ebenezer. And we joined there. But we left Ebenezer. Now, I go to the Methodist Church. I sing in the choir. My husband sings in the choir. My daughter sings in the choir. My granddaughter sings in the youth choir. She's on the Youth Usher Board. My daughter is the President of the Young Adults. That's why she's not here. They've gone on their retreat somewhere in Wisconsin or Michigan this weekend. So we are, I mean, we're not sprouting any wings.

S Can you get Johnny in church?
MG John was in Church before he went on the road playing. John left Chicago, he graduated, he just turned 17. He graduated on a Thursday night, joined the Lionel Hampton top band in the country on a Sunday without a rehearsal and he had just turned 17. Now, at that time, John was playing the piano for the Sunday School and he was so wrapped up in the Sunday School that no one should take the offering banner from his class. He gave up all the money out of his pocket and he'd go up and tell the secretary, "Would you please give me the money that you're going to pay me today." And he would put that in.

S My goodness.
MG Keep anybody from thinking better, he grew up in the church. But after he got on the road, he sort of strayed away and he went.

S That's what my mother said of me. She said I had strayed away.
MG And of course it didn't bother me. At times he would tell me, "Momma, now I'm not going to such and such a church." I'd say, "I don't care where you go if you can make it anytime any place."

S Yeah. Do you know how to work that? (the tape recorder).
Doorbell rang. Mom went to answer it.
MG Yeah, they bug me all the time about Johnny. Everybody _____ me. Yeah, and the funny thing about it is when Johnny got in the union when he was 15, I put his name in the telephone book. I have never taken it out. It's been in there for 45 years.

S Oh, it has?
MG I've never taken it out. I pay for it every single month. Johnny Griffin is in the telephone book, 432 East 46th Street. It's been in there since 1945.

S That's very interesting.
MG In that telephone book, and when I had his son,

S This is along with Billy Foreman's name?
MG Yeah.

S Johnny Griffin and Billy Foreman?
MG I'm in there and Johnny's is there, and when his son was here, John Arnold IV, I had him in this private school up here in Howlton, I said, just tell the kid you're in the book, because it's his same name.

S Right.
MG That just wigged him. He was in a ____, just tell them you're in the telephone book. They don't know the difference. They had his name.

S Tell me something about your grandchildren. He began to tell us about that when we were trying to call you and then he backed out. His oldest boy is the fourth, right?
MG Yes. They are twins-a girl and a boy. John Arnold IV and Joanna. They're the twins. They are twin sets. They're in New York. They live in East Elmhurst. They live in Queens. And the baby is 23.

S Is she in New York also?
MG They're in New York, all three. They're living in East Elmhurst, and each one has a child.

S Ahh.
MG The girl, Joanna has a little girl. John a few months ago had John Arnold V, and Ingrid has a little boy, so they're there.

S Do you get a chance to see them?
MG Now, I haven't seen; I saw Joanna last year. An uncle of hers died on her mother's side and she came to the funeral, but when Johnny came, you see, I didn't see Johnny for 16 years, because I don't fly, and he didn't come back to the states. He back to Chicago in 1978 but he stopped in New York and brought his children and his grandchildren, and a wife from Europe. She flew in the Sunday before, but that little granddaughter, she's

S This is not his children, it's his 3 kids' mother-in-law.
MG His 3 kids are by-the mother is Black. The first wife, you know, he was telling me he had problems. Well, they separated and she sent the kids to her mother to keep. I didn't know they were coming. Her mother kept them exactly 10 months and brought them over here, rang the doorbell, and gave them to me. The baby was 4, and the twins were 7, and she said, I have
END OF SIDE 2, TAPE 1
TAPE 2, SIDE 1Mom She wouldn't have taken the kids, but she was fighting ...... skip here they were here at the same time.

S So you had sort of like a family reunion to go to?
MG Sure did. With my son and his children and his grandchildren.

S And you're mother.
MG Yes, well now, mother when they came in, mother wasn't here. We just got mother-mother decided in 1955 that she was going to go back to Louisiana. You see, we had lived in Louisiana since I was 3. I was born there.

S So, what was your maiden name?
MG My maiden name was Greenup.

S That's very unusual
MG Right. Greenup.

S Is that from Louisiana?
MG That's from Louisiana.

S So your mother and her parents were originally from Louisiana, too?
MG Yes. And my father.

S And your father.
MG They're all from Louisiana. We came here in 1919.

S Oh, your father, too?
MG Yeah. Mother and Dad were two fortunate old people. Mother was the oldest of 10 children. Dad was the youngest of 6. Both fathers were Baptist ministers.

S Now, I know why you say you're a Baptist.
MG Yeah, so my grandfather sent my mother to school when she was old enough to go off to school. My other grandfather sent my daddy-he was a baby. He went to school because they were both farmers. They went to school, stayed in college and they graduated in 1903 from Baton Rouge College, and got married in 1904.

S What was your father's name?
MG Greenup.

S Greenup. And your mother's name?
MG My mother's name was Scott.

S Scott.
MG Right.

S Okay, so that's - are they buried in Louisiana? Were your mother and father buried in Louisiana?
MG We took my mother south and buried in August when she passed. My father passed when he was 40, right upstairs in that front bedroom. We took him south and buried him so they're buried side by side. Because she died 61 years later.

S Is this their hometown?
MG We're not-in a little city-we are 3 miles West of Clinton, Louisiana, and that's my mother's section of Louisiana. Now my father was about, maybe, 15 or 20 miles still going west. We were in East Feliciana Parish and he was in West Feliciana Parish. That's like Cook County here, you know, like Counties, we have parishes there in Louisiana. And, my grandfather died in 1948 and there were 10 children-my mother being the oldest. When he died, he left them a 200-acre plantation. So we have 200 acres of land on LA-10. Not I-10. LA-10 and we're about 25 miles North of Baton Rouge.

S Who is staying on that land?
MG Well, now, when mother decided she wanted to go back to Louisiana, this is mother's home here where I am now. I didn't think she was going. She was going down to be an honored guest at Southern University's Founders Day. And she said to me before she left, she said, "You know, if I had somebody to stay in my house I think I'd go south and stay." Well, I knew she wasn't telling the truth and I knew I wasn't telling the truth. I said, "Oh, I'll stay in the house." She's very sentimental about this house, my dad having died in it and she paid for it after dad was there and we were already living in it, and she went down for the Founder's Day. Called me in June. She went in March. Called me in June and said, "Baby, you can get ready to move, I'll be there the first of July to ship my stuff." And I almost panicked because my sister has a 7-flat building on King Drive on the 40th block. I was living there and in 5 room with just my daughter. Johnny had gone with Ham, and no worries, no nothing. And here, I'm thrown in this big house. So, I had told her, there was nothing to do but move down here, and she went south. In 1955, one year after the boycott had started. Well, see, in 1927, my mother was a clerk in city hall here. That was 55 years ago, and in 1928, she was appointed one of the first Black probation officers in Chicago and we grew up under the wings of the late Congressman DePriest who was our first Congressman after reconstruction.

S Really? Is his family still in Chicago?
MG Yes. He has a son and Stanton had a stroke about 9 years ago in the family building right around the corner from here. He's right around the corner.

S Was Congressman DePriest from this area of town?
MG He's 4538 & 36 King Drive, just a half block from me.
? Do you know Etta Moton?
MG She was on television the other day.
? Right.
MG Yeah, I don't know her personally, but she was on there talking about when she was in -what was the thing, the play they did?

S Porgy & Bess.
MG Porgy & Bess. And the lady was thinking that the thing was made for her, the first part, but she said actually it wasn't made for her. But she did it, you know, on Broadway. You know, she lives, now she isn't too far from me. This 46th Street. She's 10 blocks north. She's in the 3600 block right on King Drive.

S I interviewed her about 4 or 5 years ago and I knew she was on King Drive. I think I have an address for her.
MG Etta Moton. She's in the 3600 block.

S Well, she was married to a _____ _____, wasn't she?
MG She was married to Barnett.

S Yeah.
MG She was Etta Moton and she married Barnett, Claude Barnett. He was a defender man.

S A Chicago Defendant.
MG Chicago Defendant.

S Does Johnny get back into the family history, because this is so important that the young people know where our roots are. Does he, he's probably so busy that he doesn't have a chance to.
MG Well now, Johnny knows some things. He might not know everything, because my mother told us-I have, I don't know where mine is-maybe at my sister's, you know about her grandparents names and things like that and how they started. But my mother had a remarkable memory and she-having gone to college and having had the know-how, Mrs. Charlotte, we called her Mrs. Charlotte, she was really something. And the day of her funeral; we had a funeral here on Tuesday, then we shipped the body, and had a funeral in Louisiana on Saturday. Well, the funeral we had here, we were getting things done in such a hurry because she died on Friday, we had a funeral here on Tuesday, and you can't do anything on a Saturday and Sunday, and we were trying to get it so we could have the funeral Saturday so the people down there could come when they were off from work. So we were rushing up everything. But I have a friend down the street, she contacted these new ____ people on Monday. And Tuesday morning, they had an article in every paper on Mrs. Charlotte and WGN television came to the church and stayed the entire funeral. I thought, well, this is it, you know. And about 20 minutes-we had the funeral at high noon-20 minutes after I was home they came to the house and stayed 2 hours.

S Good grief! Who does Johnny look most like, you mother or his grandfather or your late husband? We'll stop just for a minute I want to get this on tape because it's so important.
D Hey, this is Nathan Davis - in Michigan. And this is one of my
All talking at the same time
G And David I want you to meet my mother.
D Hi. How you doing?
MG You, too.
D Well, we're on the ____ together.
MG You were?
D I told you how he...
G _____ will play a tune.
MG Oh, beautiful, beautiful.
D Yeah, play saxophone and I'm Professor at University of Pittsburgh.
MG So I guess I've got another son, right?
D Yeah, yeah.
MG I've got more children than the....
D You've got more children than you need.

S Are you a jazz performer or a jazz and classical?
D No. I'm a jazz musician.

S Yeah?
D Yeah.

S And you work for Pittsburgh.
D Yeah. In fact, when I coughing

S That's right. You probably know a friend of mine there, Andre Previn who is a
D Oh, Andre Previn?

S Yeah. Because he wrote me and said he's in trouble because he didn't wear a tie to ____ ___.
D Yeah.

S What happened?
D I don't know. At the Pittsburgh Symphony. Yeah, I put together a program. He's on the Board of Directors for that program that I put together.

S You didn't happen to be with him when he did with Itzak Pearlman, ____ MacShane, and the feature on jazz.
D No.

S Itzak Pearlman was just in Michigan.
D Oh, yeah?

S And he was saying "I had a terrific time."
D Yeah, Red Mitchell was down there.
G Oh, yeah?

S It was a terrific show.
D No, I didn't have nothing to do with that.

S He and ____ ____. You don't see too much of Yitzhak Pearlman, the biggie of all, you know, getting more and more to jazz violin. You know Kennedy, Jr.?
D I know him. Yes. I used to work with him.

S You're kidding? I tried to get _____
D Yeah. Kennedy, Jr.

S Well, I know he was on television with _____ on violin. It's the father, then.
D I'll tell you where he is. He's in the West Virginia Symphony. From Morgantown, either, you know...

S And you happened to run across him? Well I'll try to get in touch with me because I want to get to his son.
D His son is... I can give it to you. If you want to give me a call.

S Like I say, Yitzhak is trying to locate him for me because he respects him a lot, and Andre Previne presumably ____, so I was going to try. But he was happening on television last night. I was just telling John with Mr. Kennedy, Jr., the father.
D Oh, yeah?

S He does a special on Duke Ellington. And there was Carmen, there was Joe Williams, Billy Taylor was the theme, Max Schroger was there, too.
D Yeah, okay, if you want to give me a call, I'll get it to you.

S This is kind of a small world. Do you about...
D I played with them before.

S You have? Do you know one of the...
D I played with him for a year. I played a clinic up there and played with the band...
EVERYONE IS TALKING AT SAME TIME!
D ________

S Oh, I was in sabbatical out there. I was in Europe.
D I was about 3 or 4 years up there.

S Okay. It was the worst ice storm they had there.
D Some students picked me up at the airport and ____ ____. We were driving up through the airport.

S Did you meet Lou Smith at all? He's the director of the jazz band.
D Oh, yeah. Sure. We were really ______ together. Yeah. EVERYONE IS TALKING AT SAME TIME!
D I know Louis good, man.

S Well finally those idiots in Michigan are trying to get the jazz scene going(?).
D He was working part-time. That's what was a drag, because these cats play all the... You know Louie, don't you? Louis Smith doing the ____ show?

S He's teaching in public schools part-time and doing jazz at night.
D He'd do part-time at night. I told him, "Man, you shouldn't do that."

S Do you know what Lou is doing? Lou doesn't want to be ready. He teaches Junior High School from 8 to 4, and teaches part-time jazz at night. If he'd quit that Junior High School job and push, he would probably get put on full _______.
D Well, I think it's the money thing he said.

S It is. He's making like $26,000 or $27,000. He wanted just part-time, and I think now he's up to about $32,000. That was at that time.
D Part-time?

S No. He's full-time. Now this is at the school. And he only makes, maybe in Michigan he makes maybe about $15,000, but he's pulling now close to $50,000. That's why____. He's off in the summer.
D Yeah and he plays.

S So he's giving you a bunch of bull when he says ...
D We played down there with him at Moorehouse. We did that gig down there together, about 3 years ago, you know.

S How long have you been in Pittsburgh?
D I've been there about 10 years now.

S About 10 years?
D 10 or 11 years. Something like that.

S I want to put this back in. I've got some good things for your mother.
MG What's the matter, John.
G You've got a bee up there.
MG A bee?
G Yeah and it's over your head.
MG How'd he get in here?
G He came through the door with me, I guess.
MG Look on the back of the kitchen and get the fly swatter. You have to kill them, they'll bite you.
And you better give him your car keys.
D Well, I'm glad I met you.
MG Yes. When you're in town, drop by and see me.
D Okay.
MG All of Johnnie's friends come by and see me.
D Hey, you need to get together and have a block party or something out there. Grady is out there. They're getting ready to play in the Bank's parking lot over here.
MG Grady's out there?
D Grady, Rice(?), the whole band is out there.
MG Well, listen, honey, that's Kathryn.
D She's out there.
MG Kathryn has invited the people. Kathryn is getting the entertainment together. She invited Stevenson and she's invited everybody and Red Saunders, that's the Red Saunders son.
EVERYONE IS TALKING AT SAME TIME!
D I mean, he had to show up. His son? Yeah, because he's dead.
MG She's having a block party. I said, "Kathryn, how many children you have? Did you contact the children?" She ain't going around contacting the children.
D Especially when somebody calls you at 7 o'clock this morning.
MG Kathryn has just decided to have something. She might decide that later on this afternoon she's going to New York.
G How do you know ____ ____
D Well, is she doing this on her own?
G No. She grabbed and kissed me and said, "Here's a steak here in a paper bag."
D Okay. I'll see you all.

S Let me take your name and address before you get out of here.
?? Take him home and....
EVERYONE IS TALKING AT SAME TIME!

S And this is your sister. Is she still alive?
MG Yes. She taught 31 years. She retired a few years ago. She's a _____ ___. Yeah. And that's the one I told you her son is a Colonel in the Air Force. She had just the one child.
G _____ ______.
MG _____ _____ was 40, that's when my daughter headed for Grammar School.

S Oh, yeah?
MG Yes, we had _______

EVERYONE IS TALKING AT SAME TIME!
MG I got up to show him Mrs. Charlotte.

S That's your mother.
MG Yeah. This picture was taken when my mother was 93. This is Doug Bennett. Doug
Bennett appointed her Commissioner on the Police Jury.

S Was she on the police force at that time?
MG No. This is down South.

S Oh, I see.
MG He appointed her a Commissioner on the Police Jury, and she was the first Black to ever get appointed on there, and the first woman. And she was 94 and Doug Bennett has his arm around her and the other gentleman that's holding her hand autographed the picture is Russell Long.

S I don't believe that.
MG It is. Russell autographed the picture. That's the Senator from Louisiana.

S I know Russell Long. Everybody knows Russell Long.
MG So Mrs. Charlotte was quite something, and they thought the world in all of her. Now, there's Congressman DePriest.

S _____ _____.
MG Yeah.

S You're talking about here in this neighborhood.
MG Yeah. Right around the corner there.

J When was this taken James?
MG Look at that. That's Mrs. Charlotte. It was taken last year on her 100th birthday. On her 100th birthday. It is something, isn't it.

S I guess.
MG She was something. But I was telling you that I took her to church and people were talking to her and she said, "Well, I'll tell you what I'll do. I'll say a poem for you that I said when I was 8 years old. That had been 92 years ago." And mother stood up and said the poem and it had 23 verses.
? What do you know after23 years?

S Nothing.
MG 23 verses.

S What I'm going to do is...
MG I'll be right back.

S ...is close this album when Johnny comes in.

S kip in tape.

S All right, Mrs. Foreman--we're talking to John Griffin's mother again and I want to ask her a couple of questions about her son. Was he a very musical child?
MG Listen. I came over to my mother's. I lost a baby. That baby I lost when she was 13 months old. And I stayed over here when they were born and at that time, Johnny was just 19 months older than that baby. Radios were just coming out to be that people were buying them, and my sister bought a console model. Johnny wasn't 2, but he would listen to that music all the time. When I went back to my house, he would follow me around and I didn't know what he saying for a long time, but he was saying "usic, Momma. Usic, usic." And he was meaning the music. So, in about 2 or 3 weeks, we bought a long time ago a Philco, and Johnny was just ______, and he could turn that radio on and tune it in and listen to that music.

S Did you give him piano lessons?
MG Johnny had - my mother started-first he was taking guitar lessons from a fellow that she knew. So then I started him taking piano lessons from Sterling Todd(?). So he was taking piano lessons and guitar lessons, and he started taking Hawaiian guitar lessons. And when he got in high school, the first year in high school, right when he got in there he didn't go to the band, and when he did go a couple of weeks later, the instruments were all gone. And that was during the heart of the Depression and I had separated from John's daddy when he was about 31/2. And I was working but not making very much. I couldn't afford to buy a horn. He wanted to play clarinet, so I went downtown to the King Music Company-it was on Jackson, and I talked to the man. And he said, "Well, Mrs. Griffin, can you afford to rent the horn for $4/month?" He said, "Now, if you can rent it for 4 months, after 4 months I'll take the $16 and that will be the down payment on the horn" and then I can pay so much a month. And that's how John got his first instrument.

S Does he still have that instrument?
MG No. He doesn't have that clarinet. I've forgotten who borrowed it or what happened to that instrument that it got away. But, then a year before he graduated from high school, he wanted to get in the "swing band", but he would have to have a saxophone. I still didn't have the money to buy it. But, the same-the late Congressman DePriest, his grandson is 10 days older than Johnny, and Mr. DePriest would pay Johnny and Oscar $10 a week to go collect rent for him. So Johnny took his $10 and put them together and went down, he had enough money, and I could sign for him to get his first saxophone. And when he joined Ham's band, he hadn't had his saxophone hardly a year.

S Did he sing in the churches then?
MG No. He didn't sing in the church, but after he started taking music lessons, I told you he was playing for the Sunday School.

S Right.
MG And we'd have programs and he'd play his Hawaiian guitar beautifully and he would play the guitar.

S Did you make him practice? Or would he practice by himself?
MG No. This is why I think I didn't have the problems with Johnny that some other parents might have had with a child. And you see, Johnny was so little, when Johnny joined Ham, Johnny was only about right here to me. Johnny wasn't 5ft when he joined Ham's band.

S Weren't you fearful of such a small young child going away on the road like that ____?
MG Well, he had just turned 17 and I let him go. But the thing about is Johnny graduated from Grammar school. When he graduated from Forestville(?), he was the first boy that had ever received the top honor pin. It had always been won by a girl. _____ _____, but Johnny in years to the school was the first boy that had ever received it. Then I have his letter from the Superintendent of schools-who was Johnson at the time-Johnny was editor of the Forestville Star and they received this award from New York and no school had ever received it in Chicago, and Forestville got it and Johnny was the editor. So, he went in to DuSable with flying colors. He was as smart as he could be. After he was in there a couple of years, he just wrapped up in his music. Johnny was in every music aggregation in the school. The orchestra, the ROTC band, and another band, and then in the last year, he got in the Swing Band. He did music, music, music. So, this particular semester he flunked in 2 subjects and my mother almost died. She said to pull him out of the band. I said, no, music is Johnny's heart. So they were talking about Ham coming here in June and he's going to want to take Johnny on the road with him. So, this was the last year that I went up to his school, but this was before when he flunked those 2 subjects. And at that time, you had to pay $10 a subject. I made him take 2 of those $10 that granddad, that they called ______, Mr. DePriest, and paid for his 2 subjects, and he took them. Well, he never flunked anything else and when he graduated there were 300 and some kids in the class and he was number 24, so you see how far up he was, but he had 24 aces in music, and his music teacher, or the band master, Captain Dodd. Captain Dodd would call me and say, "Mrs. Griffin, I'm going to catch Lil John by the seat of his pants and throw him out the window." And I would say, "Please don't throw my one little boy out the window." And then after telling me that, then he'd tell me this, he said, "Well, you know, we have a special period that everybody is supposed to make this hour a regular band rehearsal." He said, "And a lot of times, Johnny doesn't show." And then Johnny had a cousin over there and he said, "Now, Keith works hard for what he gets and he comes, but I'll tell you, Mrs. Griffin, Johnny comes in and opens up the book. He's never seen it and he plays it without any mistakes." So now, he's telling me he's going to throw him out the window, and then he takes up for him. So, 2 weeks before Johnny graduated I had to go up to the school. He English teacher said, "Mrs. Griffin, Johnny should have handed in 5 reports; he had only 3." That's the English teacher and History teacher. The English teacher is White. I said, "Now, I'll tell you what." And Johnny reads. He loves to read. And I and 2 little cousins, sister with Annette, that Hyber Club, where you've got everything, and Johnny would read them. He'd come in to ____ ____ and get him a book and check it out on the counter and he'd read. I said, "Johnny has read enough books to write a dozen book reports." If he doesn't have them in, and he won't go anywhere. He'll stay here and go to Sunday School, but he got them in just like that. Now, I went to the History teacher. The History teacher said, "Mrs. Griffin, you can't expect Johnny to have tomorrow's lesson when he wasn't in class today. And they keep Johnny playing from band to band and every spring they give a program that they call Hi-Jinks, and it's 2 or 3 days. How can he get his history lessons when they've got them in there playing for this?" Then she said, "By the way, I understand Johnny organized the sextet, how is his sextet doing? ___ ____ ___, so here it is, I came to tell him 'all right if he doesn't have ___ ____" Because I'm one parent. I'm going to teach him. I'm always with the teaching.

S I think this may be a good point to stop this then before we run out of tape. I'm going to show you this on your television. You can give me just a piece of ____, coke, what do you want, Jerry?
MG Do you want coffee?

S But I want you to see it on your television.
MG Now, the television in there.

S You have no television inside.
MG the one in the kitchen.

S Yeah.
MG Yeah, we'll get it and bring it in the dining room.

S Okay.
MG Where's grandpa?
?? Poopsie. Bad dog.
MG Where's your daddy?
?? He in the kitchen watching the football game.

S and I want to get one more still picture of Johnny. I want to get him some more here but the time _____ _____. Maybe I should call him from here. Jerry, if you could start getting that together for me.

END OF INTERVIEW