Sallie Martin

S = Standifer
M = Sallie Martin

S This is September 19, we're in the home of Ms. Sallie Martin, the great Gospel singer and also a philosopher. We're at 6719 South Crandon and we're in the very lovely apartment of Ms. Sallie Martin. It is a beautiful place. It's right across from a park. What is the name of this park across here, Ms. Martin, up here on 67th?
M Oh, it's Jackson Park.

S Jackson Park? We're on the corner of 67th of Chicago and Crandon. Ms. Martin, maybe you could tell us a little about where you were born, how many children were in the family, and something about the town in which you were born.
M I was born in Green County, Georgia. That's out from Atlanta. Of course, I lived there with my Mother, my Grandmother, and my Grandfather. Now, that was the family.

S Your father had died earlier in your childhood.
M I've never known anything about my father.

S I see.
M So, therefore, after my Grandmother and Grandfather died, that left only my mother and myself. So, then I went to Atlanta to work for a while because ___ ____ about, oh, I think I wasn't 16 yet. I worked there for a while and went back and I just simply after my Mother died, started to call cousins and they said, "Oh, why don't you stay here with us?" I said no, I'm going to go to Atlanta. They said, "Well all right, then if that's what you want." I said, "Yes, because I never liked any cotton picking and no kind of working in the fields." I said, "So, therefore, I'm going back to Atlanta."

S Did you travel to Atlanta alone? If so, how old were you at that time.
M No. I went to Atlanta when I was about 17 years old. And then came to Athens, Georgia. And the lady's leaving today, and she came there and her mother was sent to Athens. And she met me and I was telling her, I said, "You know, I stopped with a family here. They are very nice people, but I want to go to Atlanta." When I went there to get the ____, the lady said to me, "so, now I have two daughters. They don't go to shows and they are not out late at night. Now, if you would like to live here, that's what you have to do." I said, "Well, this doesn't make any difference. I've never been to a show before. So, what's the difference?" So, I stayed with her. She said, "Well, I'll tell you, if you ever decide to come back to Atlanta, look me up."

S Now, another question, Ms. Martin. In your home did you have an awful lot of music in church in Pittsfield, the home which you were born? Or in Athens?
M I didn't know anything about reading music. The only thing that we had was, until a ____ ____, just an old country church, as the song that Mr. Dorsey has, "An Old Wooden Church". That was the only music in the chorus and all I had to do was to go to church and hear them singing.

S But you wouldn't perform at that time?
M No. Not at that time. I was not a Christian then and, of course, you know how the old folks were about new performances.

S Well, when did you become a Christian and when were you initiated into the Gospel fold?
M Well, after I went back to Atlanta, and I looked the young lady up, of course, her family went to _______ to church. And, of course, they encouraged me to go. And that was when I became a Christian.

S What church was this?
M That was a Holiest (?) Church.

S A Holiest church in Atlanta, Georgia. Do remember the name of the church?
M The name of it -- I don't remember the name of it but I'll tell you we all called it by baptized, the Oldest Church.

S Where you got baptized?
M Yes.

S I see. Because I hear people say I baptized with the fire and the blood and the Holy Ghost. Right. I see. And how old were you, then?
M I think I was around about ___?

S So you were very young. Would the night that or, do you remember the night or the day that this happened? And if so, did you have to testify at the time?
M Yes. It happened on a Tuesday night, because we had services on Tuesday nights. And, of course, you have to live it or be like you're really good, as the old folks want you to be.

<Laughter>

S So, it's kind of hard to deceive them.
M Oh, yes, you had to be just that. But, it was no trouble, and I'll tell you, I really thank the Lord for that, because through that, I believe that has brought me this far, because, you see, I've lived with it down through life.

S Well, did you have -- many gospel singers and many Black singers who have lived as long as you have, mentioned that they've had quite a few hardships, some of which were racial. For example, do you recall any racial problems when you were growing up, let's say in Georgia for example?
M Well, now, that was one of the reasons that I wanted to be in Green County... of course, the folks that I was living with, they owned a farm, they even said that "the people didn't bother me", but he had a brother. The man that owned the farm and he and his mother lived there, their other brother had married and he lived quite a little distance away, but they had the horse, you know, the rider. So, when he would come in town, he came in once and it was after ___ ___ really, and we were glad my mother was really gone. He came in and he said to me, "what people is over there. Where's that ___ ____?" So, I called him up once and ___ said, "Now, I'll tell you what you've got to do. It would be the best thing for you to do. You go on home. And, of course, we won't make no trouble. You go on home. Because that was a family, the two brothers, the worked for the white folks, but they stood their ground, because just like one of the brothers said, "now, listen, you tell me now what you want me to do ___ ____ won't come, because you see, I don't joke." So, someone would have a _____.

S I see. So, get it right.
M Yes. So, get it right.

S Do you remember in your childhood any lynchings or the terrorizing of Blacks at all in Georgia? I mean, we hear about the plan today.
M Well, I heard about it. I heard about what happens. Seeming as though they had some kind of a _____ morning for some reason, but being young it didn't stick in my mind.

S Now, I'm going to quote something from Tiny Halbert, he says, "You had pointed out that Black people were clearly deprived and terrorized." And Tiny tells one part of a story of a man who escaped the mass lynching by letting corpses fall on his prostrate body. But judging by her comments, there were also on civil racial _pride??___. In other words, Halbert here is saying that at least you can remember one time when there was a near lynching.
M I think this was the same time.

S The same time?
M Yes. In Athens. And, of course, they seemed like they were lining them up on the side of the walls or something, with their back to them. And that was the reason why this man when they're falling and somebody fell on him. And, of course, he just acted as though he was dead.

S Nothing was happening. Did you want to get your phone?
M Did it ring?

S Yes. All right, so we were talking about any hardships that you might have had, particularly insofar as racial problems, and, of course, I guess all singers and all Black people in those days, Black singers, were having a great deal of problems. We know about that -- just imagine.
M Well, you know, I wasn't singing at that time, but you know how I had just gone south at that time. Some of the Whites usually just simply thought that maybe it's a girl or motherless young girls and maybe they could do as they pleased.

S Right.
M And, of course, that was what you thought. As I said, the police seemed to try to set them straight when they went there but they didn't. I don't joke. So Mimi and I don't take no foolishness.

S These are Whites who had come to a Black home?
M Yes.

S I see.
M And so we would always seen the detail of laundry then. I got to the place that if I'd see them, I'd just go somewhere and hide.

S I see.
M Because I just feel ___ ____ you have to do so the rest of ___ is not ____. And I told them "I'm leaving here."

S As you were growing up as a girl did you hear or hear about some of the blues singers such as Mar Renie or Bessie Smith?
M Yes, I heard of Bessie Smith, and what is the other singer that died? That was her name. I forget now.

S Was this Mar Renie?
M No. She didn't ___ ___.

S Bessie Smith. Maybe it'll come to me.
M Well, Bessie is still living, isn't she?

S No. She's dead, of course. Bessie and Mar Ranie, they're both still dead. When did you go to Cleveland? Someone mentioned...
M Well, now, I went to Cleveland -- -- -- -- -- _____________, then I got some ____ going from Atlanta, I met a real man and, of course, I really thought, he was so tall and heavy and one thing and another I thought you know he's 22, 23 or 24, because I was 20. So, we got to talking and his mother said, "well, you know, he's just 18." I said, "18!" She said, "yes." But it just continued on until I married Wally Smart. Then, in 1917, I don't know what happened on the West side of Chicago, but in Atlanta there was a fire. It just seemed that it had circled the town and it would just leap from house to house. It started on the West side and just came on around going to the East side and it just jumped houses and seemingly, when it got to the East side, of course, the first part of it was mostly Black. Then it jumped out the ___ ____ and that was just simply all of the ___ ____. So that was when they started and they got something to blow the houses down in front of it. That was the only way they got it stopped. So then my husband said, "Oh, ____, we're getting our things" but it seems like the fire is coming where we packed our things, and then going to the West side wall, and I said, "let's leave here." Didn't know, let the ____ stay right there. ___ ___ too bad and then on to Cleveland.

S So as a new bride fleeing the fires of Atlanta you went on to Cleveland.
M Yes. We went to Cleveland. In 1917 one of the coldest winters it seemed like that I ______. Made me crazy momentarily. In 1919, I came to Chicago.

S Did you do any singing while you were in Cleveland?
M At that time you see there was no singers, there was nobody singing what you would call "Gospel" singing. Most of what we were doing at that time, you were either in a choir and you either sang from a hymnbook or either a gospel book. Let's say they didn't call it any gospel singing, he was just doing church work and singing.

S So, the gospel pearls were out at that time?
M Yes.

S And was the Baptist Convention putting that out? Or who was putting a___ ___ out at that time?
M Well, they always put it out.

S I see. So the gospel pearls of gold were way, way back then.
M Oh, yes. And so, then they considered you're just doing hymn work or something like that. He hated waiting. So, in Cleveland it was always cloudy, especially through the winter he didn't seem to see any sunshine. And that just kills me. I don't care how down like I'm feeling, when the sun comes up, it gives me the desire to go forth.

S Right.
M When I came here and it was raining, and as soon as the rain was over the sun came out. I said, "this is the place for me."

S And you've been here ever since.
M No. I went back home. I went back to Cleveland and I told my husband. Well, he wasn't so eager about it and we -- I think it was 1919 that the panic was on. Everything was slow, nobody couldn't find any job. I was working on the West Side for a school which caused me to have to get up in the morning and get dressed early but, however, I needed it. So finally, I said to him, "You're an usher in the church. I'm singing in the choir and we're next door." He said, "You know what I thought about? I thought about I would sell some hamburgers or something like that and why not?" So finally he worked it up until where he put a place out in the yard that was large enough in the front yard and he started a little business. So that went on until, I guess, around about 1922 I think it was. And of course he began to get just a little bit off the hook and I just said, "Well, now I'm going to Chicago."

S And you left him there?
M Yes, so then he wrote to me and asked would I come back and help him and then he would leave.

S I see.
M So I went back and helped him out until he seemed like he wasn't going with me, so I said, "well, I'm going." But he finally came on to Chicago and got a job. Finally he got a job. We tried to ____ ___. Things just got so awful in the church. We had an apartment right at {terribly noisy, I cannot make it out} ___ and knew then ____ ____ ___ ___. So, like the time I was working down in the _____ ___ ___, you know, he had a job and then when he finally got out of the job, he just started where he'd have games and playing, men all in the house, drinking and would gamble all night. So, I didn't say anything. So finally, it just came to a head. I said, now we will just have to ___ ____. I cannot take it. Well, he couldn't be helping me now because that was not my life and I'm not changing. So, we separated. We stayed separated until he passed away.

S I see. Now, I'm going to stop again. All right. Now, you are thought of as one of the first to have organized one of the first all-female gospel groups. What was the name of that group? Who were the members of that group?
M Well of course, the who to the Sallie Martin singers, but I am the first to sing as I said, we use the gospel chorus in the hymnbooks. Well, now, in 1928, the National Baptist Convention was here. Mr. Dorsey had one or two songs and one of them was, I think, "If you see my Savior then Somebody Sing it." And that's where we got the idea of a gospel song.

S So they weren't calling them gospel songs?
M No. We were just singing hymnals ____ the gospel for them, just sing them ___ ____.

S I see.
M So really, I'm not just _____ myself, ___ ____ some of the ____ ones that run across this country would be shot(?)[shocked?]

S Oh. Now were you composing?
M At the time? No. Sometimes Mr. Dorsey would. You see, I started with Mr. Dorsey.

S Yeah. This is another question we should get at. I understand that he heard you, because you wanted to come. You had heard about his singing and his choirs here in Chicago.
M No. You see, he had just organized, he had decided Magnolia Louis Butch(?) at the Metropolitan Church, 41st and King's Drive. At that time, they had gotten the ______ and ___ ____ and decided where they were going to try to see if they couldn't organize some gospel choruses in the different churches. Well Magnolia said, "Well, all right I know I can handle one in my church. Theo Crossey I know could have one of them ____." So they had heard of Mr. Dorsey's song and they heard of him at this Convention, therefore, he said, "well, I'm John the Pilgrim" because he had a pretty tough little time letting go to come from over where he had been with more rating(?) there. But the Lord, I think, was working on him because he kept him kind of sick. They were going to send him to ____ as soon as he was able to let go to do anything until he decided that he was right.

S This is while he was playing piano for Mar Renie?
M Yes, only he had a ___ ____.

S Oh, I see.
M Oh, he had just stomped because he had made up his mind, "well, I think I've ___ ___ right and do what the Lord wants me to do." So I heard in our Church the word came and she sang "How About You." And I said, "Girl, where did you get that number?" She said, "Well, I thought this was the old man who is on 40 Street." Because you see, Mr. Dorsey's memory was kind of bad and everything about him. He kind of had that old timey weird look on his face, you know. So she said, "I'll tell you what to do. If you go to 59th and Wabash on a Saturday night, there's a lady there that's trying to teach you how to do gospel numbers and he comes in there with but few songs he has." I said, "all right." I went over the next Saturday night and her daughter was trying to ___ me into a song. But you see it has always been since I was a young girl, I went to one of our Conventions and I think I over strained my voice trying to do some of that singing that I shouldn't have. And I didn't know any better. So after that, everything has to be transposed ____. I won't sing anything in the key that is ________.

S I understand that Mr. Dorsey himself when he first heard you said, "Well, I think you'll do it because we can transpose most of your songs."
M Yes, well you see he came that Saturday night, he heard me going over the number and afterwards he said, "well, now, you have a good ____, but the thing about it is you have to have somebody to play for you that can transpose. Because you'll never do that song in that key. I'm trying to get a group together, would you like to join?" I said, "Well, yes, I'll be my agent." He said, "well, I rehearse each Saturday afternoon at my home. I live with my uncle on 40th Street." ___ ____ often it was South Park where he lived. And he said, "You come to the rehearsal." So I went to the rehearsal and that's the way that I got my start in the gospel singing theater.

S It took you a while before you were able to take solo parts or he permitted you to take solo parts wasn't it?
M Well the thing about it, he had a lady that was Betty _____, she was a soprano singer.

S What's her name again?
M Becky Bettykay. So, and of course, she was really the gospel leader of it, so I worked with him for a solid year, and he would never say ____, "I think I'll try you out to see." So we went down to Illinois, here, I forget the name of the little town down here, they all used to go to quite a bit, and we would always rehearse in the afternoon before going to the services. So, I said, "Mrs. ______, let me try the number tonight." "All right. What are you going to do?" I said, "Well, I'll tell you what I'm going to do. I'm claiming Jesus, first of all." And that's ___ ____. " "All right, let's go over it." We went over it. I sang it that night; I didn't ever have to say anymore. I could go anywhere that anybody would ask me to come, cause I didn't have the money, but he did have a little money from being on shows with ___ ___ ___, so he has ___ ____. He would send me like he was glad to do that because what songs he had, wherever I went, I carried the music. Then when I'd get through, I'd sell it.

S Now, I noticed this was a usual trend at that time. For example, if he was traveling with Mahalia Jackson, then she would be singing all of his music, right?
M Well, you see, he wasn't training her. That's the reason I said I like the folks to be with him when they interview him, because you see, when I first started Mahalia hadn't got this call. It was one or two years or more, might have been three. When Mahalia came to Chicago and traveled we'd her Johnson singers. They had a group. Johnson from the West Side, I think he's over there somewhere now, and they sang as a group. And then she went into the beauty business ... beauty shop. And she worked in that for a long time. But see, I was on the road going then.

S When did she finally join the Dorsey group?
M Well, she didn't get with Mr. Dorsey -- I was with Mr. Dorsey as I said from 1929 up until 1940, and I said, "well, I think, Mr. Dorsey, I'm just going to travel by myself and I won't have so much ... of course, I was running his business and everything and taking care of everything. Because when I would go to the rehearsals I would notice his uncle's wife's sister, she would do maybe the cooking and going to the store, while Mr. Dorsey had an old bag that you keep money in placed in a drawer. He had a iron there, no rug on the floor and an old desk. That was his room. We rehearsed right there in this room. I'd notice if she's going to the store she'd go there and she would get her some money out and not make any record or nothing. When he'd get there to carry us home, he had an old car and he'd carry us all home. When he'd get there he'd just go on and get the bag out of the sack, put it in his pocket and never look. So after quite a few rehearsals -- that was when I said to him, "You know, you have something here, but you don't know what to do with it." He said, "What do you mean?" I said, "What I said." He said, "Can you do any better?" I said, "I think I can." He said, "Well here it is." I said, "What are you going to pay me?" "Four dollars a week." I said, "All right." As I told you, I had ___ ____ separately and, of course, I have some function. I put it in the story, then I went down to the Ritz Hotel, just one block -- wasn't quite a block -- from 40th Street, because it was in-between 39th and 40th.

S I see.
M And the hotel, I got me a hotel room for $3.00 a week. So, it was night now, I'd get me some music that we had printed up and these people in the gospel choruses that they had organized, I'd go to their rehearsal. Well I sold $5.00 worth. He was very nice about it, he'd give me $2.50.

S Was this when you got the idea of forming a publishing company of the Morris -- that came later --
M No. That came in 1940.

S That's the Morris and Martin?
M Martin & Morris.

S Yes. Sallie Martin and Kenneth Morris. And that came after this time.
M Yes. That came in 1940. You see, I had really made Mr. Dorsey a business by that time.

S I see. Had you walked out on Mr. Dorsey? I read in the ______ Book that at some point you decided that you and Mr. Dorsey had a break and you decided to go out on your own.
M Well

<TAPE STOPPED>

S We were talking about Mr. Dorsey, your publishing and your selling of his music. Now, did you begin to ... when you were selling his music was it printed by a publishing company?
M Yes.

S And did they get a part of the money from that, or how...
M No.

S To print up your music.
M Paid the printer for the music.

S I see. And what did it have on the cover, published by Sallie Martin and Thomas Dorsey?
M No. They just had published by ____ of the company writer Thomas E. Dorsey.

S I see. So they would publish it for you. Do you remember the name of that publisher?
M He's still here, but I can't remember. I can get it.

S But it was a Chicago based company.
M Yes.

S Now, later on Martin and Morris -- Kenneth Morris and you got together.
M Well, now, that was due to the fact, as I said I told Mr. Dorsey that I had been with him for at least 10 years and I really built up a business, and, of course, when you do things for folks and they can see where you have brought them from, I think you ought to be able sometimes to see it yourself. And to protect the fellow if another fellow is saying ______.

S Right.
M Well, you know, again if you're so well, then Mama ____ is going to remember her daughter when she bears his ___ she's going to get him to marry her. One year he went to San Francisco to the World's Fair and when he came back he brought some old _____ and when he got through he said, "How about going down to my own church." And that was to carry his ______ _____ ______ ____, and nobody thought nothing about it. So then, a little later on, and you know, he had been Sanders. He said to me, "Sallie, what is it that the people said that ____ Wanda Brown have a business the way you treat the folks." I said, well, from your business you ought to be able to tell. And I said, "I wouldn't carry ____ anymore." So, after that, started again and that was when I just said, "well, I'll tell you I'm going to do. I'm going to get them to ____ ___." You know.

S But you felt he wasn't satisfied with the way you were running things?
M Well, you know the thing about it? He was satisfied with the way I was running it, but the thing about it is he wanted to take what somebody else said and don't have enough grit to just say, "well, she's doing a mighty fine job with the business."

S I see.
M I think you ought to stand your ground, regardless.

S That's right.
M So that was the reason why. Then when I decided I was just going to travel, I had no idea of no business. I just said, "Well, I'm going travel. Get me a ____." I started out with myself and this girl that's ____ ____ now.

S What is her name?
M Julie Mae Whitfield

S Julie Mae Whitfield. Is she still performing?
M Oh, yeah. She still plays and sings.

S What age is she about?
M Well, now, you see, that's been quite a little while since 40, and I'm sure she had to be 18 or 19 if she wasn't 20.

S I see. The two of you set out and started to perform. Who's music did you perform, Mr. Dorsey's?
M It was Dorsey's.

S So you were still making money for him.
M Oh, yes. Mr. Dorsey.

S Who else was writing music at that time like that that was very popular?
M Well, now, it wasn't but a very few. I think you might have the writer that Mr. Dorsey heard and kind of made him think on his way about it to write the song. But there were just a few more songs, I think, Lucy Campbell, she had some numbers, but mostly what we had right then was Mr. Dorsey's.

S Now Reverend Cobb, he didn't write any gospel music, did he?
M Well he had more than 2 songs but you see he's the one who said to me, "Miss Allie, why don't you go in business?" I said, we called him Preacher and I said, "Preacher, I don't have no money." He said, "Well, I'll help you. I have a young man in my church who is a beautiful musician." And at that time, on State Street, there was another lady named Mrs. Boling. She had asked me, "Well, how do we set up the book store, and how do you get this, and how do you get that?" I explained it to her. So she had tried to go in there and tried to sell music. So, he said, "he'll write a song and carry it over there and give it to Boling for $3.00, just to get him a singer, or either something ______. And I think I can help you if I can get him business." I said, "Well, all right, then. Okay, I'll find a place." So, Matt Cathrines(?) had a funeral home right there at 43rd and Louisiana, and he had 2 stores inside there. So I said, "Matt, what would you rent this to me for?" He said, "Oh, $50 a month." I said, "All right." I had the rent and I paid the rent. Preacher put me in the ____ decorating the store. I got some showcases, then I went to Mr. Dorsey, ____ Roberta Martin, going to the ___ ____ because at that time even before that time, I encouraged Roberta Martin to have a store.

S Now, weren't you seen with Roberta Martin before that time? Didn't you sing?
M No.

S You finally joined her for a little while, didn't you?
M No. I carried them with me down to South Carolina and also down to Alabama.

S I see.
M Because, you see, the superintendent of the Sunday School Congress knew me and he wanted me to come down there and I said, "Well, I'll bring some more singers with me." So he said it was all right.

S And Roberta Martin . . .
M And I had gone to a lady down in Texas it was, I had gone to a lady in Kingston and she wanted me to come out and she was going to bill us as "Martin & Martin." Now, of course, they were there ___ ____. I don't know, she had a young man with her that was so jealous that if you didn't say "Roberta", if you said Sallie and didn't say Roberta, he thought that you had committed a crime.

S So Roberta wanted top billing. I suspect she wanted the top billing herself, didn't she?
M Oh, I guess, maybe, but Martin and Martin she had ____ ____, she didn't know no where to go. So, I carried them down in Alabama and Reverend Dennison said, "Umph. Ms. Martin, I think I'm going to have to call you tomorrow." He said to me, "I don't like their attitude." And I said, "Well, all right, then." So, I had to tell him that we had to stop in Atlanta, so we were just an _____, and then because he decided that he can't handle the media(?). And on our way back, Robert Allison here, he's here somewhere in Chicago wanting me to sing with them. He was blind(?) And we got to a little crossroad. He stopped. Well, the cops were coming in a car. He thought they were going across, but they pulled out and pulled straight down to where he was going. So, he kind of put on a little speed, you know, Robert did, and passed them, but he passed them on the right. ___ ____ they were coming, and I said, "Now, what have we got?" Robert said, "Well, I don't know what they've done here." So, they stopped us and said, "Boy, don't you know how to drive? You don't pass on the right. You'll get somebody killed. Where's your driver's license?" So, Robert Allison has always been one of these slow unconcerned fellows. He began looking, looking and he didn't seem to be able to find his license and, of course, Roberta, Eugene and all those in the back, "Oh, Mr., please don't do that. What will his mother think and won't know what has happened. She'll just almost die." So, he went up then back to his car. He was an elderly man. He came back and said, "You haven't found your license, yet?" Robert still ain't said nothing. He said, "Nigger," and just gave him a wham right in the face. And oh, lord, they just kind of passed out. So, they said, "well, all right, now. You'd get up here in this car and you all can go on wherever you're going." They put him in the car. I got under the wheel and I followed everywhere they went. So, finally, we come to the little place where they would put them in. And I said to the young fellow, "listen, I think you have us under the wrong impression." I said "I'm on my way to Atlanta, Georgia to open ___ ___ in the morning. And we just left Selma, Alabama with Dr. Dannigan(?)" He said, "What do got to prove it?" I said, "Well, I do have some literature." By that time, Roberta had a book and on it Jesus was like this one. So, it just happened when I opened up the trunk of the car, the book was there and he saw Jesus. So, he said, "well, I'll tell you what. Let me talk to the old man." So he went and said something to the old man. The old man came back. He said, "Let me tell you, Nigger, you better learn how to talk. If I'd a had my blackjack I'd have beat you to death." So, Robert still didn't say anything. I said to him, "That is just as well. He's not trying to ignore you or anything. He's just a slow speaker." So he said, "Well, I'll tell you what I'm going to do. You get under that wheel and don't let that wench back there drive." I don't know where she ___ ____ ____ cause it was _____. "And you be careful and you get out of here." I said, "Thank you." And, Honey, I got out of there, and on to Atlanta. So, after that, I carried them down with me to Texas, and the lady had the billing on the outside, "The Martin & Martin Singers." But she'd never met them and quite naturally the devotional had started when we went in so we just went in and had a seat. So, after the sermon, she said, "I see that Sallie Martin is here and maybe she'd like for the group to sing a number." So, we got up and we sang and we got through singing they walked out of there and went and got in the car. I stayed in the meeting until it was over. So, when I came out, Roberta said, "I don't see where they're at. Why? They're not saying anything about us." I said, "Well, didn't you see on the placard Martin & Martin?"

S Right. Right.
M ___ ___, "I don't see where we're getting anything out of this, Roberta." My goodness. I said, "well, I'll tell you what. Let's go back to Chicago and I tell you when you get to Chicago, you go your way and I'll go mine. Just as I have been doing." You see, because they didn't know nowhere to go and I was just trying to introduce to some places to go.

S When you came back to Chicago, is this when you organized your singers with Dinah Washington, for example, and some others?
M Well, in 1940, was when Dinah came to me because

S Was her name Ruth Jones when she came to you?
M Ruth Jones.

S And when did she change it to Dinah Washington?
M Well, she changed to Dinah Washington. Notinell Hampton had a contest at the Regional Theater

S Right here in Chicago?
M Yes. And she won.

S At the time, was she singing with your group?
M Yes. She had been singing with my group, but I had to bring her home and gifts from ____ _____ because she was just absolutely -- she was just 16 -- and as fast as you would want a ______. Now, she'd go places with me, and she'd play for me. A beautiful singer.

S And she's also a fine pianist.
M So she played. She could spot any man in that audience that she wanted to meet, and before they could say "May the Lord be with us `til we meet again." Dinah would be out on that floor like that _____. Well I know that her Mother trusted her with me, so I just had to tell Mrs. Jones, "Well, I just have to leave Dinah because I can't be responsible for her."

S How long did she sing with the _______ Martin Singers?
M I guess I had about a year. I imagine, just about a year.

S So you really coached her in vocal elocution and pronunciation?
M Well to tell you the truth, she would just sing, I guess, very good and I guess I just come out of school and one thing and another, like that. But, she started with me.

S Now, after she became a very popular blues-jazz type singer, did you ever hear from her anymore?
M Let me see, did I come in contact with her. I don't believe that I did. I guess mostly would see her mother, because she'd always be gone.

S And her mother here in Chicago?
M Yes. She's still here in Chicago.

S Was her mother -- oh, she's still here. Did her mother receive any financial help from Ruth after she became very popular?
M Well, I don't know. I guess maybe she did because I think they live somewhere now, unless ___ ____. I think she has now what Ruth has bought for her when she was with her.

S Let me ask you one more question about Dinah Washington (Ruth Jones) and then we'll move on back to Sallie Martin. If I remember correctly did she stop singing blues & jazz and then sort of came back to religion again?
M No.

S She died while she was still ___?
M That's right.

S I see.
M They said she took an overdose of dope or something in Detroit.

S In Detroit?
M Yes.

S I see. All right. Now, with the Sallie Martin singers, they were billed as one of the first quartets or female gospel groups, and they sang songs like "Just a Closer Walk With Thee". Who wrote that?
M Well now, to tell you the truth, we don't know just who, of course, Kenneth Morris put it on paper. But now when Preacher said to me, "Sallie, you go in business and Kenneth, I know a man down in Kansas and I don't know who he is, but I know where I can find him. Now he's got a song I do believe if you can get it, that it will really put you on top." The Preacher took Kenneth in the car and carried him to Kansas. He got this "Just a Closer Walk With Thee", came back and arranged it. And that was the theme that got us going.

S Who was this person that he got the song from?
M He didn't say.

S But the proper person did write it.
M And he just got the words and everything and brought them back and arranged it. We published it and I went to Birmingham, Alabama, I believe. You see what I do is to make every National Baptist Convention and I carry the music.

S Oh, by the way, you know, I think it was a few weeks ago they had the National Baptist Convention in Birmingham, didn't they?
M Yes, they have.

S Because I went down to interview Mr. Frederick Hall and just before the convention, he was in Birmingham and I met him at a hotel there and he was saying he was preparing a choir, or several choirs for that convention.
M Yes. You see, what they call a _____ ____ side myth in Birmingham.

S Oh, I see.
M And, of course, I don't know where _____ side, because you see, boys ____ ____older side because [I cannot understand what she's saying here for about1 minute.] when old man Boyd died, of course, what Jackson has now, they came out from Boyd.

S So Boyd was the Convention as a whole. What was Boyd's first name?
M I don't remember. All I've ever known was Arthur Boyd.

S I see, and he started the Baptist Convention movement.
M Yeah he started it. You see he was ___ ____

S Another tune that you said, "Just a Closer Walk With Thee" put on the map but also a big hit that you produced was "He'll Wash You Whiter Than Snow".
M Yeah.

S And that was a Sallie Martin hit that all of remember.
M That was one of the girls in California now. She wrote that.

S Did she write that for you?
M Yeah. She wrote it for the group.

S I see.
M And I published it for them.

S Do you have any ideas -- you see we talk about hit songs today a great deal on the radio and television, what would be considered a hit? In other words, if "He'll Wash You Whiter Than Snow", if that was a hit, would it have sold a thousand copies? Or a million copies? Or, what
M I don't think, I believe that "Just a Closer Walk With Thee" sold more than any number that we had.

S What was the price of that?
M What?

S What was the price for that particular piece?
M 10 or 15. I don't know what he made a double sheet out of, but it was either 10 or 15 cents.

S But even that, you made a little money out of that.
M Oh, yes, I could have sold I don't know, I know I brought 500 or 1000 copies to that convention and could have sold just that many more because Ms. County(?) was head of the music department and she made a remark and she said, "I kind of like that. I'm going to put it on the music." And they sang it. And that was it.

S Did you as a singer, especially in the 40s, make any money out of that? That doesn't seem a great deal of money 10¢ a copy.
M Well, you see, that's what I'm saying. When you were saying about the Jews...

S All right.
M Well, you see, that's it. You see that's been mostly our trouble. We count dollars, the Jews count pennies and dimes.

S Pennies make dollars don't they?
M Oh, yes. And that's it. Because really at that time the printing wasn't so high, you see? And __ ___ was $50. But of course, Mr. Dorsey, with him, he had no more than what little rent he paid to his uncle, well I know that couldn't be very much because more likely what he was doing was they were cooking for him he's ___ ____.

S Is this quote here accurate? I'm going to read something that's attributed ...
M That's what ____ Tony said.

S Yeah, that Tony said that you said.
M laughter

S And it's a very interesting quote. It says, "He says Sallie Martin says the following: ŒIf Mahalia is a cat-like and Roberta is a Buick,' " And according to you would tell Chicago Churches, " ŒI'm just a Model T Ford, but I make it over the hill without shifting gears, and that's what counts, Church, I make it over the hill.'" Is that?
M That's it.

S Did you really say that?
M Yeah. That's it. It's just like I say now, I told them their pilgrims. You see, after I started working with Mr. Dorsey, I went down to the funeral home, I was ____ ___. I was looking at it from the business side.

S And you are a business woman. I mean, just studying your life.
M So, I couldn't afford to sing well, I'm from such and such a church, especially a ____ ___ and ignore it, because this time if you can't go into your Baptist Church. So, I just went with him and he said, "Well, where are you from?" "Houston. I'm Thomas Dorsey, pilgrim at this church." So, then, they always said, "Aaw, she can't. All she does is talk her word and pat her feet." So, when I go down there, I used to go, "do you all know I'm still patting my feet and talking my words." I said, "to tell you the truth I've been just about where I wanted to go."

S Anywhere you wanted to.
M That's right.

S Another song, "I Heard the Voice of Jesus Say", is that. . .
M That was one of mine especially. That's my arrangement.

S I see. Now, I remember when I was a youngster I heard all kinds of arrangement, could you hum or sing just a few lines of that? I'm trying to remember that in my mind. "I Heard the Voice....
M Of my arrangement?

S Yes.
M singing I Heard the voice of Jesus saying come on over me to believe I heard . . . . .

S Beautiful. That's the way I remember it on Wednesday nights. That's your arrangement. Now, did that sell a number of copies also for you?
M Well, it sold good, too. Yes. I'll tell you one thing about it, like I was talking to a very fine group of young men we have. I was trying to think of whether I know the names of them. But I was trying to say to them the other night and sings of ___ ___ and none of the group won't carry any music...

S You mean when they travel?
M with them. You know, to sell afterwards. We're such big shots you know. But, brother, whatever we sang when we would get through, that group would hit the floor. We have song so and so, would you like to have it? And he'd say...

S In other words when you were there that copy sold.
M Yes. I'd sell those copies and you know we'd make enough from the copies for us to take care of our expenses and things like that, you know. Or if you didn't do that you have enough to bring back to the business. I made the business. That's the way I built that business Martin & Roy.

S Right. Just by selling and performing.
M Yes. Because he didn't have one penny when he came in, he didn't have nothing but just himself. And he gambled. It seemed as though he Tape rewound a bit.
M And he had the TV for all these years, but it was just coming on and he'd be so nervous he said, "I just can't sit in this store." I had to pay over $5.00 a week just to sit there so if anybody would come by they could buy ______ Dorsey's Bownes or whatever we'd have in there. Or if I had some gospel ____ from the Sunday School of Congress

S How do you spell the word bows.
M B-o-w-n-e-s.

S And that is a famous ... is that company still in ...
M No, no, no. We bought that out.

S Is Martin and Morris still ...
M He's still there.

S Are you still publishing?
M No, no. I came out in 1970.

S I see. Has gospel music made you any money?
M Well, whatever I have today ...

S It came from... So it's treated you well in other words?
M Yes. I have no complaint. I still hold to the way when I first started and I haven't been in any night clubs or things singing in. I stayed right with the church.

S I see.
M And I ___ boy, now you supply my needs. I said, you don't have to worry about me, I don't want to be no millionaire. Because I don't want nobody following me. I couldn't rest. I couldn't be contented. So, I'm not worried about that, so you just supply my needs. If you do that I know I'll be all right. He has missed it once, thank the Lord.

S I would like to hear you sing just a note of "Amazing Grace". I remember that when I was a boy also. At least my mother had taught us to sing it. Could you sing me a few lines?
M Well, I think we do that just about the way that I used to sing it. She sings.

S Beautiful.
M I think that's about the old time way.

S Right. Every time I heard the minister saying "Amazing Grace, How Sweet the Sound", and then we'd come in, the audience singing that.
M Right. Then we'd start singing.

S I'm going to stop the tape and rewind it.

<TAPE STOPPED >

S All right Ms. Martin, could you tell me how gospel music has evolved a change since you were a girl. You mentioned earlier that when you were a youngster that they sang hymns but later on some of those hymns became what is called gospel music. How had it changed?
M Well, now, perhaps in some of it it has been the arranging of it, you know.

S In the 20s, for example, were they singing gospels or were they singing... hymns at that time.
M No. They were still... because I said it was around about, I don't whether it was 1929, I think is what I said. After Mr. Dorsey came out with this music, with his music that if you sing a savior and so forth, that's when they began to change, because, you know, a lot of times Mr. Dorsey made a ____ to a place -- he'd go to a place and said, "I've got a song I'd like you to hear." Then having sit there through the service and then say, "Oh, I forgot all about it." Because, you see, they didn't like the idea of you having rhythm. You see, Mr. Dorsey was the first to put the rhythm.

S Oh, I see.
M Put the rhythm in the music.

S So when you said they, you mean the preachers, the churches?
M The churches. The minister.

S Right, because that was a little ...
M Yeah. Actually that was getting on the early times. So, that's where the trouble was when they set down to do. She just paddled through it.

S Oh, I understand, now. So, in the early stages of gospel music there wasn't a lot of rhythm and wasn't a lot of moving around.
M No. They had it, but they didn't have it as much given ___ ____. Like they were singing but they patted ____ like that or something, but nobody was shaking but me.

S Shaking around and waving around. In fact, I think maybe the preachers in the early days were kind of intimidated or put off by the gospel singers because they often felt that a gospel singer would take over their church.
M Oh, yes.

S In fact, even here in Chicago there were some preachers feared that. They don't want to.
M They don't want you to sing. They wouldn't have you. No, wouldn't have you.

S Do you think that this is why some Blacks for a long time didn't seem to cow-tow to gospel music? They thought this was too primitive or too ... not primitive but too rhythmic and too much motion?
M I don't know. You know I never thought that way about it, because you see I guess that was because I got saved patting my feet, you know.

S I see.
M And so I guess the reason why is that it's just that it would be impossible for me to just absolutely just stand singing something

S And not get vent on how you feel.
M Get vent to my feelings.

S What do you think about the gospel music that you would hear Roberta Martin singing. Now she was a Northwestern trained musician and she read music and it's said that many gospel people don't read music, but they're much better musicians.
M There were good singers. They were good singers.

S Do you think that would be good for a gospel singer to read music?
M Yes. I think it would be fine.

S Even though...
M I think it would be fine but yet and still we've got some folks that they don't read, but they can hear. Now I've got a picture of old Doris Acres(?). I don't know whether you've ever heard of her.

S No. I haven't.
M Well, I have her picture there. I picked her up in California. She doesn't read a single note, but she can hear every tone that's supposed to be there. It was a tenor, the bass, first soprano, second soprano, first and second alto.

S Now, when you have singers that can't read and you've got a group of singers that you have to train, how do you do it? Do you play the song for them and then they have to hear it and then they repeat it? And embellish it?
M She'd play it and then, of course, ____ she'd say "well, altos this is your part." She'd play that part for them, because she could hear it and she can play it. It's just a matter if they can't read it on their sheet.

S Well, in fact, it's kind of hard to buy a piece of gospel music and play it the way it's written anyway.
M Yes. That's right.

S I've seen a lot of Mr. Dorsey's pieces, or I've seen pieces that you might have sung and then I see it written, and it's not the way you sing it at all.
M No. No, it's not. Because I have to just get a little

S Spirit...
M ___ ___ in it.

S And when you start putting the spirit and you begin to improvise.
M That's right. That's right.

S But I notice the gospel singing is almost like the jazz singer and the blues singer, though. You improvise and you embellish but you always know when there's an ending point, a starting point. In fact, the only difference they tell me, what do you think about that? The only big difference I see between the gospel singer and the jazz or blues singer is that you're using religious text.
M Well, of course, I guess, I don't know whether they saying that we got it from them, or what, but I know it wasn't as much of it going on in the jazz world when we started out, even way back with my mother's. It wasn't as much, you know, going on. Now, the gospel, the only thing now that I sing about in the gospel singing field now I don't know what they call it, they get out too far from -- it's just like they're trying to have a show or something. It looks like they ___ ___ with the spirit part of it.

S Can't get too close to the secular?
M No. I don't know whether they're adding too much or something, because, like I told ____ at our convention this year, I told them, "You're directors, why do you have so many?" He said, "Well, it was due to the fact that we're going to record. And each man would teach his song. I said "yeah, but they're kind of too far out. I'm used to the folks not being just a showmanship, but I'm used to them singing and let's have a little Holy Ghost singing. Get a little happier or something." But now, it looks like they're trying to make it just a showmanship.

S Well, what do you think about ... since you're making a showmanship, there are some people who think people like James Cleveland is the best showman in the world.
M Well, of course, James used to be with us on our conventions. When he was a little boy and Mr. Dorsey started them out as a little pilgrim singing his first number. Well, of course, I don't know, but James' still singing in the old timey way.

S So you don't think he's gone too far out with his showmanship? What about the Mighty Cossel Joy?
M I haven't seen James in a long time. I guess he's about the same. They tell me that Mighty Cossel Joy has kind of gotten way out. I haven't seen them in a long time, but I know that's the way. You know, I don't like this idea -- like I used to tell my group -- you see ____ Ms. Ward and her group. They go to rehearsal. Now they've rehearsed and whatever they are going to do they'd all rehearse at the same time.

S The clapping of the hands?
M Move you hands at the same time. Step out at the same time. And I said, well, I don't do that group. No practice, no stepping out, no practice, no nothing, no moving. If the Lord don't move you, you just stand there.

S In other words, you're saying that...
M That's the showmanship.

S So if you're singing gospel music you say if the spirit hits you, you move.
M Yes. Move.

S But you don't prepare before hand.
M We don't prepare the notes. I know what you're going to do, you know what I'm going to do. That's just not ___ ____.

S You felt that the Clown Ward singers did an awful lot of that?
M Oh, yes.

S As if it was choreographed.
M Yes.

S Each movement was planned.
M Yes.

S What about Rosetta Tharp? Do you think that she was like that? Or she was more spontaneous?
M Well, you see, Rosetta, she's way back there in the beginning, too, and of course I didn't get a chance to see her because she really stayed in until the show. But I guess Rosetta was just as fine as the beginning. I guess. I never got a chance to really see her in person. She did a lot of Mr. Dorsey's numbers.

S Now, Mahalia Jackson would be a typical person who never was choreographed because any time you saw her, like you say if the spirit hit her, she'd holler.
M Oh, yeah.

S Or she'd hum.
M Yeah.

S Well, do you find the younger people like, Aretha Franklin who is a rhythm and blues singer with Pearce Water but also a very good gospel singer?
M Well you see, I don't appreciate that.

S What, the rhythm and blues or both?
M I don't appreciate you trying to do them both.

S Why?
M Because you just can't be on both side of the fence at one time. You're here tonight and tomorrow night you're something else.

S Do you think that if you have to make a living or make money, is it possible to do it commercially, say okay from Monday to Friday I'll sing rhythm and blues, and then on Sundays and Saturdays?
M Well, that ain't worth a dime.

S Because it would sort of be like a Sunday Christian.
M That's right. You have plenty of those. You have plenty, just go to church Sunday morning and they think everything is all right, but you see, they ___ ___. And a lot of singers say, "well, I left the" I forget his name. He's from here. What is his name? They interviewed him. He has a group of singers left here and went to Los Angeles, and one of the sisters died and ever since, they've been trying to raise money for a monument for her. I really can't think of their names, but they were really good singers. And, this sister called me and said, "I'd like to have you and Mr. Dorsey to come out because we're trying to raise some money. We want to build a school in honor of our sister." Well, I didn't say to them, "she's not known or anything." So, what is that going to amount to. But anyway, I told her I could, but Mr. Dorsey said he wouldn't be able to come. So, she said, "well, all right. You plan to come." Well, as the time kind of went on, some White fellow wrote me and told me that he had been helping her trying to help her to get things ready and they would send me my fare and this and you can stop at the hotel. And I said, "Well, I won't stop at a hotel. I'll just stop at a friend of mine." And not thinking, I went on out there, went to the auditorium where they give out the Academy Awards to the Stars. I had things ___ that at night I paid for the room and, of course, Shirley Caesar was there. They had kind of called on that together. What they did, just to be individual numbers, and that's another girl I appreciated. She's gone on about her business.

S Who?
M Shirley Caesar. She found out that she couldn't make it with the group and with the one that was over there. She went for herself. And she's doing a very, very fine job. But, anyway, they had them there, they had them to sing, and this White man came in and he carried me in on his arm and said, "Now, why don't you just sit right here. I want to spotlight on you. They started with the program. We had this -- Lou Rawls is who I'm trying to say, because he couldn't

S He's from Chicago, isn't he?
M Yes. I said, "There, ___ ____ Rawls over there.

S Oh, he is?
M Yes. So, they interviewed him before I got there and they were asking "why didn't you leave the gospel for Lou Rawls?" He said, "I left because I wanted some bread." I said, "I wished I'd have been here. What did you tell him or say anything?" She said, "No, they don't have to ___ him." I said, "Well, I would have told him, I have my bread every morning." And there must have been something wrong with him because the world is the Lord and the phone is there ____. You mean to tell me He can't feed you? So, there's something wrong with him. Anyway, they put this fellow on, oh I can't think of his name. He's in show business. But anyway, they had him on _____, and between the folks who invited me, they just did get to do one number. Do you know, they had me get there in front of that crowd and all these things of mine, they just hit the roof, because they paid, I think, $3.00 and $4.00 to come there. They didn't call my name.

S Where, at the affair.
M At the affair. After having me to come out. I said to someone out there, I have a letter from this man. I said I do believe I could put up a suit, but I'm not going to argue about it.

S This is being televised out there?
M I don't think it was televised. But, for all the friends that I have there, because really California is my town because we used to go there for the winter and just work from Los Angeles. And they just hit the roof. "Well, what happened. What happened. I want my money back." I said, "Don't worry, Darling." It doesn't make no difference because they didn't call my name. They paid the expenses. I'm just happy to see you. They pay you for it, so let's go home and eat." But, they get out, you know, and so ___ and Lou Rawls they said "well, I left because I wanted some bread." Well, I think it's a mighty poor God who owns the whole world and can't feed you.

S That's right. Well let me ask you what other gospel singers that you hear ... well, Albertina Walker, for example, now she's doing very well.
M Well she ain't done too hot. I shouldn't be saying it.

S Her last -- I've forgotten the last hit.
M Caesar was discharged here. The girl I just said ___ ___ was Shirley Caesar. Now, she's with him. His name is Andrew.

S She's with Albertina?
M Well, they were with her. That's the way they started.

S I see. Albertina and Shirley Caesar.
M And, of course, I don't know what happened to the rest of them, but Inez has a beautiful ____. She ___ ___ going to the top for herself.

S At least there's one tune that you will even hear on the big time with Albertina Walker. I've forgotten the name of it, but it's a big tune she did with James Cleveland.
M Oh, yes. I don't believe it brought me this far to leave them.

S And there was another one. It's on the tip of my tongue. Anyway, she quite a dynamic voice and you hear
M Of course she has a wonderful voice.

S Savoy label, is that a label that seemed to pick up on most of the gospel singers?
M _____ records for them and ______ recorded for them and

S Is it owned by a Black company?
M No. The Whites.

S Gospel singers have made a fortune for Savoy label.
M Yes. I was just telling these boys that I was talking with about they could make it and they said "Well, I don't think I'd want to go to Savoy because I've heard so much about them." I said, "Well, they just will not ___ ____." Now we recorded our convention with them last year and this year. Now, I went for it for the simple reason that you weren't going to get with anybody else and it's just like Mendelssohn said, "Mr. Dorsey, what have you been doing all these years?" Nobody know him and here James Krimmer has been here with me about 6 or 7 __ and they've gone everywhere.

S Right.
M You see? But Mr. Dorsey just wouldn't advertise.

S And you've got to advertise.
M Yeah. He wouldn't advertise.

S There's a saying about "what good if you light it under a bushel or something like that."
M Yes. That's right. So that's just what he put all light under the bushel. How could it be seen? Well now, he's getting his biggest advertisement right now through Dr. Hanley.

S Yes. With him an awful lot. You're right. That's very interesting. Can you think of any other well-known gospel singers that you've grown up with and have changed their style very much. Can you think of any other?
M As I said, I haven't heard Shirley Caesar in a long time.

S Who did this 'Oh, Happy Day'?
M That was this group out of

S Edward Hawkins singers, but the woman who sang the solo, do you remember her?
M No. You know they've changed right after they you know it seems like when we make a hit.

S You change that style.
M Everybody wants to be exciting and I wants to be on my own.

S Right. Who was that woman who sang the solo part?
M I don't know. I've never met her.

S A very deep contralto voice.
M Yes. I've never met them. But now, one of them that used to be with him I've seen her on -- I don't think she's the one -- I've seen her on the TV PTL, which is a religious station out of Charlotte, North Carolina. But, for me, I don't care for her real singing and naturally everybody can't please me, because I'm sure there are a lot of folks that I don't please. But, I don't think that she was the one. I think he's got two. It might be the one that plays the piano now. She's gone for herself.

S Did you know Annie McPherson?
M Amy McPherson?

S Yes, Amy McPherson, I'm sorry.
M Was she from Los Angeles?

S Right.
M Yes, I know, because that was one of the first churches that I went to. I went out there in 1936 and Mr. Dorsey sent me out there with a minister from Indianapolis and his ____, they were having a convention at his church, which was one of the Methodist Churches there in Los Angeles. And, well, I wasn't a member of the Convention. So while they were ___ ___ Convention, I got off somewhere and got me down there ____ ____ ____ Church.

S ???
M Yeah. Was better and when they knew anything I was singing.

S I understand that she had a pretty integrated group at her church. Her audiences were Black and White.
M Yeah. Yeah.

S Now do you see -- when you were growing up, did you see many Whites coming to, well not only when you were growing up, but in the 1940s, were there many Whites enjoying gospel music? It seems to me that it was mostly a Black art.
M No, well, I'll tell you most of my people that I sang to in Los Angeles were White.

S Oh, really. Did they respond like Black audiences do?
M Well, you know, they never get completely like that. They let you know anyway.

S They never got happy, though?
M It's just like, I said it's going fast. I wish I could speak French. They let you know in some way that just because it's about the Christ, they'll let you know that they're enjoying it.

S I see. How would you define then gospel music? Is it -- Mr. Dorsey once said gospel music, I wish I could remember it, but he said blues, for example, is simply a woman crying for a man, I believe that's the way it goes. How would you define gospel music?
M Well, I think gospel in music it should be something of the soul like. Maybe some time people sing it if they're burdened they express their feelings through the song. Then again, even if they're not, they feel happy, they can give it out like that, but it is a thing of the soul.

S So then, you're saying that it's better to hear the process of the actual gospel music being sung rather than to go to a piece of music and look at it, because this music on a piece of paper I can't hear that solo, I can't see that spirit.
M No, no, no. They should try to give the message out of the song so that the person will get a message that there must be something behind this. There must be a God or something. See?

S I see.
M Now, a lot of folks have got a big strong voices and be singing. As I tell them, I've never had too much of a voice because I ruined it when I was you know went to a Convention and didn't know. I should have not strained it to do something that occurred. But, I don't depend on the fact just on my voice. And somehow or another, and in some way, I've gone back to the same paces year after year.

S Do you think you've changed? Now, this is going to be a little personal question because I want to talk about the Awards and the Citations that you have received. Unfortunately, most of us have to be older before we get all these citations. It's too bad that you can't be young and get an awful lot of money and awards. Life is so backwards in a way. So you have to wait until either you're old or you die and then you get all this notoriety. But, that's life and you accept it. Now, have you changed much -- has your art changed because you've gotten older?
M No. I've tried to be just as I was when I started.

S Do you think you sing as well now at -- can you tell me your age?
M Yes. I was born 1895.

S 1895. '95, my goodness I would never have imagined. You look marvelous for '95. Well, do you think
M I will be 86 in November.

S And you were born 1885?
M '95.

S 1895. Do you think you sing as well now as you did when you were younger. I know you said you've ruined your voice a little by straining? I'm trying to figure out if age has anything...
M Well, I think so. I think so.

S ...has the problem of ages, because I'm getting older so when I came to the top of the steps, I was blowing. Has age done anything to your stamina in producing a song?
M It doesn't seem to. I must say, I was in Paris from the first of January to March 18. I sang every night except Monday night when I was off, Sunday we gave a matinee, and then Sunday nights. But, now, you see, I didn't try to ask just let me be the main spokesman or something and in that way, at night I sang two solo numbers and then with the group. ___ ___ came on when she came on singing something, if it had a background, I would sing in the background.

S So now what you're doing as you're older, you're preserving that energy and using it more wisely, maybe.
M Yes. I've tried to preserve it all the way long. I've tried to not just sing to be singing. I've tried not to just overwork myself for somebody maybe to say "Amen". Like when I was in Atlanta when these disc jockeys, they have a way of bringing groups in. They'd have 2 and 3 groups on one service. Well, now, they expect for you to try to out sing the other ones so the people can shout or something. Well, you see, the last time I was there was this man, I told him, I said, "Now, we're going to sing. But if you expect me to ___ ____ for you to shout, you just might as well get up and go home now because I'm going to sing but I'm not going to overwork myself trying to make you shout."

S That's not what it's all about.
M If the spirit comes, it's all right. I'm going to give you the message.

S And you take it, huh?
M Yeah. So that's the way I've been all the time. Then the next thing, more singers don't take care of themselves, you see. Now the group, they'd always tease me. At first we used to moan(?) a lot, you know, and I'd say "well, now you can't have the windows down on both sides." ___ ____ ___. Don't put the windows down, cause Sallie will see you.

S Would you pick up one of those ... your plaques?
M This is the Deed. It says "Assignment 1 square each of historic land on the Society Hill in Philadelphia. 102 Lumbar Street."

S Sallie Martin. My goodness.
M Sallie Martin.

S Beautiful.
M Now this is from Howard University. "____ Cottage of Fine Arts, Fine Arts Festival, Howard University, in appreciation for your worthy contribution."

S I see.
M This is from Dr. Smallwood E. Williams of Washington, D.C.

S Colonel William Jones' father.
M Per William Jones' father. Now, she was a deaf and dumb little bitty girl, almost a baby when I first started going to Washington. Dr. Williams was on what we call when you preach on the corners, they call it "on the soap box".

S Now, he's become a great
M Now, he's got a, it looks like he just got everything all around that church. One of the finest churches.

S In the State of Washington.
M And just doing wonderful.

END OF INTERVIEW