Alex Moore

February 20, 1981

S = Standifer
M = A. Moore
P = Donald Payton

S Mr. Moore, we're in the home of Mr. Alex Moore. He lives on Angeo Street. We're currently looking at Mr. Alex Moore. While this is a test pattern, I would like to ask him a few questions about himself. Mr. Moore, could you tell me again what is your address here?
M 2313 A Angeo.

S What is the zip code here?
M Dallas, Texas 75224

S 75224. Great. If you want to be remembered, do you want to be remembered as a Blues singer, a jazz singer, or what? What do you call yourself?
M Well, I am an international blues, boogie woogie recording artist and a piano player.

S So you'd like to be remembered as an international blues recording artist?
M That's right. That's what they say about me all over the world.

S You're a blues singer, then.
M Yes. I never did care nothing about being a blues singer. I never did like it. That's what I'm saying. Them people put me in the ______, I don't know how do it get this down. I was in business in 1947 in a café at 3817 Lemon Avenue and ______. And I went to work at 12 o'clock every day, but at 11:30 I'd go in and _____ piano which is still there and fool around on the piano. So one day, Mr. Tyson asked me, "Eric, you working around here some place...

S Mr. Who?
M Tyson.

S Okay.
M Tyson Piano and Organ Company. The store is going on today. And that was back in 1947. So he said, "Eric, why don't you let them" he'd tell me, "why don't you tell them a good piano player there in his Southern Steak House and let you play it." Walter E. Wilden. That was his place. And we were always hearing about that. So when I goes to work, Mr. Tyson had to tell Mr. Wilden about me playing that piano ____ ____. The next day he asked me, "Alex, can you play the piano?" I'm washing dishes-at work then-12 o'clock. Well I hadn't said nothing. He said, "He ain't ____ to you?" I said, "Yeah, I play a little bit." Just like that. He said, "Tomorrow, I'm going and audition you." He didn't go that next day, but he went the third day. So, when we went over to Tyson Piano Company, he had me to play on 5 or 6 different pianos that was in the display windows, you know. Well I played on the pianos then Mr. Wilden and Mr. Tyson they sat at the desk talking. Then, next _____, he come from the desk and said to me, "Play on another couple of pianos." And when I did that then he said, "Pick you out a piano."

S For yourself?
M To play ____ ____. For me to play on.

S Oh, you were going to use that piano in a club or something?
M His club. They building _____ ____.

S And this was called the Pipe and Club? The Wilden Club?
M No. The Southern Steak House.

S Oh, I see.
M On 3817 Lemon Avenue.

S And this was in the 1940s.
M 1947.

S 1947?
M that's correct.

S And at that time about how old were you?
M I was 47 years old.

S But you played before that time didn't you?
M Sure, in 1929 I recorded in Chicago, Illinois. They picked me and...

S Well, why were you auditioning in 1947 for him?
M To play in his club upstairs.

S You wanted to see if you could get that job?
M I was already working there washing dishes. Didn't I tell you I was washing dishes.

S Oh, I see. You were washing dishes, but he wanted you to perform.
M After they told him about me playing piano.

S But you never had let them know that you were a piano player?
M No.

S Oh, I understand.
M I never have applied for a job to play in my life.

S After you auditioned did you finally perform in his club?
M Okay. You just let me finish.

S Okay.
M When he found out about me playing and told me to pick out a piano, "I'm getting a dishwasher right now, you walk around and tell me this is around the stairs, then you start to playing piano." That's the way that happened. And I didn't care nothing about that. I didn't like it. I rather been washing dishes and getting my $21.00 a week. Then he propositioned me. Now you walk around and you draw your $21.00 a week, when we get around to building those stairs, then you're going to keep tab on the tips you get, and if you don't get $50.00 a week tip, you keep count and I'll make it out, but they'll give me but $21.00 a week. Why didn't the folks like it when I was washing dishes.

S Now, let me just understand. How much-when you took the job to play piano, what was your salary per week?
M Same thing. $21.00 a week.

S As you got when you were washing dishes?
M That's right.

S But he did tell you that in addition to that, you would also get some tips?
M That's right.

S So, about how much would you pull down a week, including the tips?
M I never did keep count.

S But you were making more than $21.00 a week, huh?
M Well, sure. A whole lot of money.

S We're going to stop this right here.
We're going to continue with what you were just saying. At this point I just wanted to show some of the people that record album of Alex Moore. When was this composed? I mean, when was this done? This album here. Do you remember?
M 1960.

S 1960?
M Yeah.

S Where was it made?
M Dallas, Texas.

S Right here in Dallas?
M On Lemon Avenue at Madam Pratt. All that is on the back of that.

S Madam who?
M Pratt.

S P-r-a-t-t?
M That's right. She was a music teacher.

S Oh, I see. What are some of the pieces you played on this particular record album? You can take a look if you like.
M It's on this one here. That's the United States. This is Europe.

S Aaah. That was made in Europe? The one that you're holding there?
M It's the same record but this cover come out of Europe.

S Oh, I see. The same recording.
M Same recording.

S But it was made in Europe.
M Yeah, the cover was.

S And that was produced in Europe, then?
M Yeah. That cover was. This cover.

Skip in tape.

S Well, this may be the most important message you can tell us. When you get older, you begin to play for yourself.
M That's right.

S You suit yourself.
M That's right.

S And you don't care what anyone else thinks about it.
M That's right.

S Okay. That's what I really want to know.
M You got it.

S But I wanted to hear you say it.
M That's right. And I used the last dime in my stomach when guys and dolls used to be standing around the piano and you hear what I'm saying? And what did they say when I was ___ with my stomach. "Man, ain't no use trying to _____ ____, you play too damned many different ways." Boy, I laughed all down in ____ ____. I laughed, cause I would. I liable to be on "Mosey down the Road" back on "_____ Boogie", on an Easter song, anything. You see, I play, that's the reason why we always said nobody couldn't play with me cause I do so much junk (jump?) is what I still always called it. Now, do you know why I let nobody ever play with me?

S Why?
M They claim that they couldn't, but when I was in Austin with that White boy-you see, I really love Austin. There was a lot of competition and a lot of friends. Like, in Dallas when I was playing that "Mother Blues", one day Lightning ______ told me I was a "Blues guy, Alex, Robert Shaw can play a ring around you." Well you know, I didn't pay no attention, but ____ ___ what he was talking about. Until in the 1970s was when they sent me to Austin to play with ____ ____ Austin Hotel and I stayed in there also, and that's when I get to meet Robert Shaw. Robert Shaw gave me a big bar-b-que there.

S He mentioned that.
M Yeah. ____ ____ ____ not just me, but it was kind of a special , cause he gave it to me while I was there playing.

S I talked to him yesterday and he pointed out that he thought you were one of the finest blues singer performers in the world.
M Well, I don't think that. He definitely know that nobody play with me. I get a job and I play individual right now. When I went to play some other Blues and the opening of it in 1972, I carried carried _____ ___. Cap Stormer(?) and another fellow Speed King on the saxophone. They played that night. You know what they said the next night?

S What?
M We don't need you. You play us enough piano. Okay, well, ______ do. From them days on I play by myself. There wasn't nobody with me in 1947 up to 1951, and when I did work with somebody they cut them out. And still today "you played enough piano". I don't say it. They say it. That's them White folks. ______ _____ do what those White folks tell you.

S Do you think that Whites appreciate what you do more than Blacks?
M I played for more Whites than I have Black.

S Why do you suppose?
M Well, when the world....when the days _________

S And your audiences, do you have more white people than blacks?
M Yeah, I believe more whites than blacks

S But do you think it's because whites are more interested in what you're
Doing?
M <Laughing> You could indeed say that. When I was in Europe, they didn't ever sit down up in those balconies.

S Cause they wanted to hear you perform.
M Standin' all around all them feet beatin' and clappin' until it ________ _______ ________ _________when ________ go back and play them another piece.

S Was...do you think that when you were a boy, you mentioned at fifteen or fourteen...
M Yeah.

S ...Did you face many racial problems or discrimination?
M No, no.

S So, you didn't have any hard time by many blacks, old blacks that you know, I had a hard time getting a job sometimes because I was black.
M I quit more jobs than I could get <interrupted and inaudible>

S Did you ever perform in sportin (?) houses?
M No. Well, yeah.

S Where?
M In _____ in uh, ________ _________.

S In any of them the 1930's, '20's.
M No, 1970.

S But you never played in any of the sportin houses of the 1920's and 30's?
M No.

S What, they didn't have them there?
M If they did, I wasn't in them. I would why it was, but one none of those players was me. See, for old town, that was the red light district. ____ McKinney, ________ ______ _______.

S What part of Dallas is that? North?
M North Dallas

S That's white part of the country.
M I suppose....______ down on that street. Blacks, Mexican, White and everyone else.

S But Mr. Shaw told me and Ube told me, in the 20's and 30's, the sportin' houses was where they got some of their best experience. Because they wanted blues players and ragtime performers there, but you never, got any jobs in those places?
M No. Never them.

S Did you ever hear of any blues performance playing in those houses here when you were born?
M Well now, I didn't know it. Now, let me tell you another thing. Back in fifteen an d sixteen and maybe fourteen on Jackson street...

S ...that's here in Dallas
M ...that's here in Dallas, sure, there was a little pleasure garden

S A pleasure garden, that like one of those houses?
M No, that's just a dance place.

S Oh, I see, like Dreamland, or Roseland
M <entire sentence is mumbled> in west Dallas. And so a guy found out a famous piano player there named I didn't even know what his name from 1916 up until 1944. I found his name out then...

S Yeah...
M When I was in ________ administration in ______ Chicago, I had been there about a month, and he came in there and I remembered him. <sentence is mumbled> and I asked him his real, real name and he said, Nathaniel Washington. Oh yeah. Course when I left there about five months later, he passed...he passed...

S Oh, you mean he died.
M That man had to be way older than me, cause I'm a kid and he's a man then playing piano _______ _______ _______.

S Was he playing blues piano?
M Ragtime and...see, back in those times, it wasn't blues, it was called ragtime.

S Right, right.
M Ragtime.

S Did you ever imitate his style?
M No, I never imitated anyone's style

S But, he was black, though.
M Yep, black.

S And he was here in Dallas?
M Yeah, in Dallas all piano players they must have come in...they come in _____ I did. All the people that played pianos went __________.

S Were you around here when Mary Lou ________ was here playing with Andy Cook?
M Oh, sure!

S You remember those days?
M Yeah, I remember those days.

S Cause Andy, I talked to him, he's 82 he's working in New York at local 802, right and I told him that I was going to come down here..._____ out the joy.
M The big, bad ______ in Dallas is Red Calhoun that played at _______ Park.

S Was Buster Smith with them, then?
M No, Buster Smith played...I don't know how long he played with Count 'cause in the King ____ ______ catalog, his name is in it. Buster Smith and that was the last of the 30's.

S But you do remember Myrtle Williams and Andy Kirk's Twelve Clouts of Joy and all that?
M Sure and Louis Armstrong and Louis ______ and all them. _____ _____ all them.

S Okay, we're going to go back a little further you mentioned something about your family...
M ...yeah...

S ...and where did you grow up, as a boy up until you were fifteen?
M Dallas on Hall Street (?)

S And at that time, were you playing in churches at all?
M No.

S Did you go to church?
M Sure.

S Did you hear black music in the church?
M Sure.

S Did you hear gospel music?
M Sure.

S But it didn't influence you musically at all?
M I'm playing with the kids, runnin' up and down the street in west Dallas this 20 minute, south Dallas the next 30, back in north Dallas in the next 20, Okland maybe next tallest hill the next I never was still, friend.

S Well I'm trying to figure out though, see most of us, if we played music we played because we had a mother who played or we heard in church. Many of the blues pianists say they got started in church. How did you get started on the piano?
M <Laughing>

S Did you have a piano in your house?
M No. I didn't have a piano in my house.

S Well, how did you learn?
M _____ the piano.

S Where did you first see a piano?
M Round ______ and boogie joints and things.

S And you just walked in and started piddling around?
M And then started lookin' at guys.

S So, you heard some...
M I had the music in me. I'll tell you, my auntie between '17 and '18 she had a player piano....In Queens City. And so, I would get on that _____ that thing and then I'd take me a razor blade. <tape cuts out then interrupts conversation>

S You were telling us about how...what kind of influences you had you said that you would listen to the old player pianos as a boy...
M Yeah, I used to listen to that.

S ...and old um, the young um, as a young boy you would listen and try to imitate those old performing on those pianos, huh?
M I didn't try to imitate nobody. I never tried to imitate nobody.

S Even when you were young, you didn't?
M No. They couldn't do nothin' that I lacked. When the ____greens came out they didn't interest me...you know why?

S Why?
M There wasn't nothing they couldn't _____ _____cause I seen so much in my life? Long time before _____ ______ put them on the _______.

S But when you were a boy...
M Yeah...

S ...you said that you didn't have a piano in your house, right?
M No, I didn't have a piano in my house.

S And you, but how did you finally learn to play that piano? You would have had to have...
M They had rugger houses all over town.

S What kind of houses?
M Rugger

S Rhythm?
M Rugger

S What's that?
M Gin and bootleg whiskey...chug houses

S What you call 'em?
M Chug houses.

S But first you said, rugger houses
M Rugger houses, yeah.

S How do you spell that?
M R-U-G-G-E-R

S Rugger houses, that's a new term...
M That's why they do the _____ _____ all night long drink down the whiskey, corn whiskey and wine and ____.

S But you were fifteen, they'd let you in there and play at that young age?
M Anywhere I wanted to go, I went.

S How old were you when you started playing? Like in the rugger houses for example? How old were you before they let you in there?
M They let, there ain't nobody let me nowhere, they didn't let me at all, I just went there myself. I was____ when I was sixteen years old. <mumbled>

S But did they tell you...
M ....age was 21. I lied some.

S You lied and said, 'Okay I can play piano' you went into the rugger house...
M ...No...it had nothing to do with me. I went in when ________ . They didn't ____ when I went in there. Fifteen years old I ______ in there.

S I see.
M I was a man there. I used to take fifty pounds in each hand, I mean twenty-five pounds in each hand and muscle them out, and the boss man at the grocery store was ________ for nine years. My father died when I was eleven years old I come out of school in the sixth grade.

S Couldn't...
M <mumbles something>

S Were you playing piano at eleven?
M ____ about no piano.

S So you didn't start until you were fifteen?
M No, I didn't start nothin' when I was fifteen. I was more banging on the piano at nineteen...I was sent to Chicago in 1929 that <mumbles>...sent to Chicago, Illinois in 1929.

S How old were you then? About?
M Nine years old.

S Now, I'm a little mixed up. When, in your best memory, did you first start playing piano? First, I thought you said that you were fifteen.
M Yeah, I didn't start playing no piano at fifteen, I played I'm ____when I'm fifteen years old.

S So, you really didn't start playing until you were about twenty? In your twenties?
M I went with some guys, I hit on the piano some, but I wasn't playin' it, nobody was...man, if you could play the piano you could ______ _______ _______ _____ night.

S So, you were in your late twenties, before you were really playing and performing for money.
M No, I wasn't playing for money then. ____ of the day. You see me in the day, I don't wanna be lookin' for no job. If nobody gonna come here ______ _____ _____ I'd never play. If nobody gonna come <all mumbled and TOTALLY indecipherable>

S So, when they discover you, then you perform.
M They didn't want me to play no where, because I _____ _______ <totally mumbled>

S When was your first job for pay for piano?
M First job I played...

S Your first professional gig.
M I was right around twenty-eight or twenty-nine. At the, oh, what was the name of that place, it was a club.

S Ed Bongo?
M No...it was a chop house. Bootleg joint.

S You were about twenty-nine years old and you got your first job then.
M Yeah, playin'. Ottawa Social Club. That was the name of it.

S Here, in Dallas?
M Yes in Dallas.

S Ottawa Social Club?
M Sure!

S And you, did you have a rhythm section with you.
M No, no.

S Just by yourself?
M I played by myself ____. ____ all the time. I played once with _______. He's a jazz band, then...a big band. I was just good.

S Since you're naming some people, what other people, big names did you play with?
M Nobody, but Buster.

S Buster Smith.
M And _______. Now, when I was playing at ______ I was playing, at the Southern Steak House, one time, that was 1952 and '53, a guy I believe ____ passed and I recall he was a real sick man. He played the guitar and he was a good performer and singer. And he and I played together for a couple of months. At Oakcliff, I mean in ______ swimmin' pool. And from then on, no more. 1952 through 53, 54 wasn't anybody _______ downtown. I wasn't playin' no more. But around...

S ...1960 you gang up your _____ trip.
M 1964 we all had ________ 1969.

S Oh, I see.
M 19 <laughing> 19....Red cattle was '51 & '52. I was playin' for Joey Pauper (?) at Green _____ <mumbled rest of sentence>. He was, as I said, played only ______ Avenue, and _____. <Cannot understand> And I played for him about two or three weeks and when I was playing there, that's when Ray Calhoun played there.

S ...who was Ray Calhoun...
M ____ Big band...._____ ______ ____ about Dallas, _____ old band.

S What was the name of the band?
M Ray Calhoun's Band...that's all.

S Where did Ray Calhoun come from?
M Dallas

S So did his families...
M ...yeah, he has family here, cause his brother <Standifer coughs over Moore's comment> and played with Buster Smith.

S I see.
M Yeah.

S Now, Buster Smith is currently living in Dallas, and he is the one that performed, wrote arrangements for Count Basie.
M Yeah, that's right.

S Including 'One o'clock Jump'
M That's right.

S But Count Basie's name is on 'One o'clock Jump', isn't it?
M It sure is, I guess, I don't never seen the album of it.

S Is that Buster Smith's arrangement though?
M That's Buster Smith's stuff. Everybody knows that.

S Now I'm going ask you some questions that are going to be kind of tough to answer, but...
M There ain't gonna be nothin' that's tough to answer...

S Okay. It's often when you read about blues performers, particularly those that are performing in club houses and sporing houses. They have a personality and a character that people think...a reputation. Many people, for example, if I say, blues singer, they say well I think he's a man, he's a womanizer, he drinks a lot without getting drunk, he can fake it, when I say, 'fake it', I mean he can act drunk, but he's really not drunk, uh, he probably is used to playing in dives and...is that true... about blues singers?
M Well, I'm gonna tell ya, that drunk jive that don't _____ me at all. I never did go for that.

S You never did drink?
M Yeah, I _______ about to drink. I'm not ______ down at all the one time I got drunk. I'll tell ya. So, I don't know, it was somethin' crazy, but I was playin' no piano, and uh, and I got home that night, next mornin', man, my jaw was killing <laughing>, head hurt. And when I got back, I was _____ at home, cats, let me tell ya, boy you _____ lockdown ____ chili <laughing over sentence cannot decipher> Man it ______ of my life and that was the last of that. <cannot decipher after this>.

S When you perform, did you drink a lot?
M No, I drank some.

S You had your soberness about you so that you could play what you wanted to play?
M All the time, all the time.

S Were you a womanizer? Did you run after a lot of women when...
M No, no...heck no.

S But that's the reputation of blues singers that's not true, then.
M Nothing I want to say on that. I'm no liar.

S What?
M No liar.

S Okay
M A whole lot about nothin'. <undecipherable>. Women would come up to me and I'd say, 'I'm playin', don't bother me, don't bother me'. I didn't want to be bothered.

S Were you involved much in the church when you were growing up?
M Yeah, I went to church when I was growing up.

S Are you in the church a lot now?
M No...but I should be. <undecipherable>...any kind of ________

S So, when you were playing the blues in some of these houses and dives, did your friends criticize you a bit? Why can you be down there, your center, when you were younger and you were playing, sometime when you were playing the blues and you were talking about love and your talking about this, they never gave you a hard time, they never criticized you?
M Oh, no. The way lived, a lot of people know _____ our ______...I was young, strong _____ and ______. And I never would steal. <mumbling>. Women good as any in there, but nothing <mumbling>, you understand me? I don't care how _______ ______ you was, you didn't <mumbling/laughing>.

S Now I'm going to ask you some quick questions here about different things in the world that's going on.
M Yeah.

S Do you think Africa had a big influence on black music?
M Africa?

S Yeah.
M ______ beating all of them _____ and _______ <laughing> but and see them on T.V. a lot.

S Mary Williams says she thinks that Africa laid a bomb on her. She says none of her music was influenced by Africa. Is your music influenced by Africa?
M How can you say that? I ____ _____ _____. I've never been over in Africa, all I've been, all I've been is to _______...this guy _____ and all that stuff.

S So your music, then...
M ....I'll tell you what though, I really like, see, that's <mumbling>...downtown, downtown....what do you call...

S ...Nigeria...
M Yeah. But if you go <mumbling>...just me and you. That ain't ______.

S <Laughing>
M ...we go downtown, right now. We ride in cabs a lot.

S What do you think about all the Mexicans that you have here, the Cubans. Do you think that they are going to contribute to, or make you a better musician, or make black music any better?
M They aint' got nothin' to do with me. Whether you like it or not. <laughing>. But I'll tell you what, when I played the _____ _______ it was in my long _____ with the Mexicans. Yeah. I played in <mumbling>

S Played them the same program, huh? But they're playing their music, right?
M Yeah, they're playin' their music.

S Oh, I see. Hold that for just one moment. So, you played on this museum in ______ at...
M ...a museum

S ...in 1978...
M ....October 29, 1978

S So they had some black music, and then they had some music of the Mexican-Americans?
M That's right.

S You like their music?
M Sure. I don't mind it. It ain't so bad, I even went to school and learned to speak it.

S I see, and this was in Fort Worth?
M That's right.

S What did you do on that particular day?
M I played pianos...so ______ up on me about 20

<end side one>
<start of side 2>

S What do they sell for.
M Five dollars when I sold them then. You could still sell 'em for five dollars.

S Can you?
M They still, if you read about them in the vertico (?) you sell for ______. And that's <mumbled>...and let me have 'em for two and a half.

S And you could get your profit on that one.
M I was makin' four to five dollars on them.

S Tell me, have you made any television programs in the last few years?
M Ever?

S Have you appeared on T.V.?
M Sure!

S Can you remember any of those times?
M Any of those...

S Yeah, which ones did you, do you remember most? For example, uh...
M ...the 19...uh, 1977
?unknown voice? ..Uh that _____ _____ program we did _____ _____
M ...yeah
?? That was June of 197...
M ...78...
??...79...78
M I believe it was, '78.

S Okay...
M Yeah, 1978.

S I'm going to ask Donald to tell us more about that after a while, but before I do, I would like to know if you could go the piano, and give me a sample of what you call the Alex Moore Blues, would you?
M Sure!

S Okay, we'll stop it right here.

<break in tape>

<piano playing>

S Fantastic! That's all I can say. I'm speechless.
M You like that, huh?
<break in tape>

S So, you've been with Local 147 here in Dallas...
M That's right...

S ...since how long? How many years?
M It was way back in the 30's

S And those are the two cards there that you have from 1965, but they wouldn't give you a gold card, huh?
M No, I didn't get no gold card. That's for _______ in 1965.

S So you and Buster Smith deserve it though, I think...
M ...Back then we feel like we deserved it. They wouldn't give it then and so that's just the way things are.

S Bring a chair up, um Donald.

<break in tape>

S Can you do any boogie-woogie?
M Buster done told me that you played ____ _____...a lot of folks, I mean...

S ...Give me Texas style boogie.
D Texas boogie.

S Yeah.
M I don't know no Texas boogie.

S Bob Shaw told me down here that he said no here's the way I play boogie he said, Marylou Williams played a little differently, now let me see/hear how you play boogie.
M <mumbling...can not understand statement>

S ...That's great...
M ...No Bob Jones or neither...nobody..._____ _____ boogie champ.

S ...well show...
M ...greatest ______. I was the man, I loved who played with uh, Temo ______ when Temo was ____ ______. You can't find any of those records.

S Well, let me hear what your style of...Alex Moore style of boogie.
M <interrupting Standifer, mumbling....piano playing begins>
There ain't no more than the rest of...but I just played...

S Give me that left hand jive thing...let me, with the boogie.

<piano playing>

M You make me laugh...

<piano playing starts again>

S Okay
M <clapping & mumbling>...okay, man...

<piano playing starts again>

S Wonderful, just wonderful.

<break in tape>

M Trying to find out that guy ______ played...

S How did you get his name, _____ ______ _____ when you first started...
M _______ that's what.

S I mean, did you ah, make that part of your music?
M Yeah, I, that's what I used to do. ____ _____ doggone. ____ ____ ____. <laughing> yeah.

S What happened to Whistlin' Willikin.
M George ____ gave me that name.

S What happened to Billy ______ didn't he come through here for a while back in the 20's.
M No he didn't do nothin' in those days. John Hughes (?) all the time. He told ______ and shined shoes all the time.

S A toe doctor?
M That's right, worked on corns and that. Deal with corns and shined shoes that's all ______ ______ ______.

S What was, was that Hollow street kind of the center of entertainment after people started coming off the farms, did they go to _____ center track down the deep end...
M Yeah...they leaned on....<mumbling> five minutes from the graveyard. Down there on _____ street <mumbling>...like I said, walk by you <mumbling> ___ _____ ____ _____ black _____ _____. Then, <mumbling> same thing with women. And then _______. Boy that _______ come from dancin'.

<conversing with Donald (?) but can not decipher>

M ....<still mumbling> Jimmy Reed, because them were guys that were lazy <mumbling>

S Did you, ever play with Jimmy Reed?
M Huh?

S Jimmy Reed.
M I knew Jimmy Reed.

S Is he dead now?
M Yeah.
P Yeah, he died in 1975, I think.

S Now he's a pure Texas product, isn't he? Jimmy Reed. Or is he from Texas?
P Jimmy was really kind of in Nashville...well, I know he played in that Chicago set for...
M Yeah, them guys...he played
P What about 'lead belly', Lead Belly come to Dallas?
M Oh, way...oh <mumbling> I had his records and that we could...
<break in tape>

S Alright, we're back with Mr. Moore, and we were talking with also, Donald Payton, who is a very good friend of Mr. Moore, and he's in black geneology, but we're back in the home with Mr. Moore and I think Mr. Payton was about to ask him some additional questions, and I'll just turn it back over to him.
P How did you, might be influenced by all of those musicians that were coming through, I mean with all that music, seems like you would have had to had 'Hot Lips Page' coming through then, and Blind Lemon and Okla T-bone, maybe T-bone Walker, how did you...
M Well, T-bone, well, see...I won't talk about T-bone Walker ____ ____ on that guitar. Me and _____ went down to that uh, ________ recordin', you see you _____ street downtown they had a buildin', oh man, all along the _____ and yonder, and wide and it had O-K, Paramount, RCA and________ all the record companies in there. They had it set up, recording all cats...yeah. And so, we, went down there, we weren't gettin' in on that stuff. T-bone ______ ____. You don't see on the Treasure River Blues.
P Yeah, I'm hearing you.
M ...<mumbling>...I knew that they were recordin'.
P What was the difference in the city piano playing and country piano playing? Was it a difference in style that _______ would lose and...
M <mumbling>...white folk more of that country stuff...I ain't got <mumbling>country music.
P Charlie Park?
M That's right.
P How did _______ ______ can you play a ragtime kind of ragtime tune?
M <mumbling> ragtime...
P Let me hear...let me hear you play it.
M Shoot...

<piano starts playing>

<break in tape>

P ...would it have been called a 'happy blues', 'ragtime'...
M ...no, blues ain't got nothin' to do with ragtime...ragtime is ragtime, blues is blues. _____ _____ used to play with Lawrence Welk he was ragtime piano player.
P But was it a 'happy' or a certain sound that made it a 'happy blues' other than a 'sad blues' you know...like the white man take the blues and jump in the river and drown...
M No, no...blues is blues, man. They got all sorts of kinds of blues, ____ _____ _____ or other songs you got _____ ______ on records of some kind back in 1925. Her name was Marie Bradley.

S Ever hear of Otter Cox?
M Sure...I've...

S Mamie Smith?
M I got them records, I got albums of them all.

S Did you ever work with Victoria Spivey?
M No. That's one of my buddies women? Last I heard of him, Smokey _______.

S Why do they call T-bone Walker 'O-cliff Walker'?
M 'Cause that's where his home is, he was born over there.

S But T-bone is a Texan...
M Yeah, he's a Texan.

S O-cliff is not too far from here, is it?
M No.

S This is O-cliff right here, now?
M <Moore and Payton talking over one another>

S Is T-bone still around?
M No, he died about a year ago.

S How old was he when he died?
M I couldn't tell you. I can get on the phone and ask.

S Was he more than fifty?
P Oh yeah, T-bone had to be about 69
M ...all them _____ goin' up together <Payton/Moore speaking over one another>
M <mumbling>

S Did you ever perform on the same bill as T-bone Walker?
M No. Never played with him no time.

S Did you ever see Jimmy Reed perform?
M _____ ______ I _____ once, but I never was <mumbling, can't understand>

S You ever see UB Blake perform?
M Oh no, but I read about it, heard about it.

S Now I noticed when you were playing that rag that you kept that 'oompa, oompa, one-two, one-two' which goes, and that bass hand was giving us that 'doopa pattern, that two beat pattern, but that right hand was giving us all that syncapation. Could you do that right hand, just the right hand by itself part? Or do you need the left hand? Play just what you just played, but do the right hand only, can you do that?
M Well, I can <laughing & mumbling>

S I don't want to see the left hand up there...well, do it.

<piano playing>

S The same piece.

<piano continuing to play>

S Good

<piano still playing>

P He used to play under the sheet, part of him used to play under the sheet and put a sheet over the piano.
M <mumbling>

S Who? Who was this?
M Boy named Jesse Maloney.

S He used to play under a sheet.
M He'd take a sheet and cover up the piano then he'd roll it back like that and just play _____ _______.

S <laughing> Too much. He was a black performer too, a black musician?
M Oh yeah.

S Jesse Marony?
M Maloney.

S Maloney.
P He played chop houses and...
M ...yeah, he played all around...
P ...you hear so much about chop, what was chop? Was that beer or whiskey?
M Yeah...mostly it was a fruit drink. <mumbling> ...now what's wrong with Sir Chop, now? He's, this not your house, get a can of malt and lick some _____ and...
P What went in, what went in?
M Fruit, and yeast, and malt and water, shoot, that's all.
P What, take it and put it all together and cook it or what, or set it out?
M You cook, you heat, you use peaches, prunes and raisins...

S Goodness...
M And raisins...oh, I don't mean all of that, you use either one of them. Raisins were the best...'cause they don't smell.

S Well, you let that stuff sit, would it ferment?
M Yeah, if you wait four days all of it would.

S <laughing>
M ...it was ready and then you go sit too...that's why it's the best, because it's pure fruit.
P But when the police would come, though, I remember you tellin' me a story one time about they broke all the bottles...
M ...that was the home brew. Those who made home brew, just like you _____ you could hear it for down the street three blocks. So the police done raided and the <mumbling>....sure is man, that ain't got nothin' to do with us down here, we still boogyin'...<mumbling>...all around this place....<mumbling>...you don't know. Like I said, women standing up on the piano right there singin' the blues and the police are at the back door and the front door <mumbling>....sure was some good people <mumbling and laughing>.

S Was this during the Prohibition days?
M Sure.

S So all of that stuff was illegal, huh? But they made it? They made that booze?
M Sure! They made it and sell it. <mumbling>...then those police get out there bootleggin cats and throwin' one gallon jugs of corn whiskey out...<shouting inaudible...continues to mumble>.

S Have you ever seen liquor made in the bathtub? Is that a joke?
M What?

S That's true...liquor made in a bathtub?
M Oh no.

S I heard this was done in New York in those days.
M Well, they could have. You see, it couldn't be made _____ _____ _____ 'cause they took it out...<mumbling>...

S Yeah...
M ...<mumbling>....comes down and goes back <mumbling>all that stuff in there and put that....called that whiskey, I'd <can't understand>

S Oh, that's true.
M It would drip when it's cookin'.

S Right, right.
M It's cookin, and so me and my cousin, one time he was running that whiskey one Saturday night and the fumes of it made me and him both high.

S On just the fumes <laughing>
M ...yeah, and so, that there liquor <mumbling>...one of them shotgun houses <mumbling> and then I <mumbling can't understand>

S <Laughing>
M <mumbling>...living room, front room, out on the stairs.

S Explain for the people who are looking at this tape, I was raised, in a shotgun house. Will you tell them what a shotgun house is?
M Ain't nothin' but a three room house.

S But you can sleep from the front door to the back door, right?
M Sure, you can sleep straight through the house.

S That's why they call them shotgun, right?
M Yeah, that's right...shotgun house...Yeah...like a shotgun ______.

S <Laughing>
P It's about the days when Ty Byron Buddy Parker were often in West Dallas, they <Payton and Moore start talking over one another>
M ...<mumbling> in them days..<mumbling>....back down in 1923 and 22. And that's when ______ and them, all those white guys_______ guys had gravel pits, _____ ______. <mumbling>...gravel pit <mumbling>. That's why you were a team and if you <mumbling> you hold six long days <mumbling>

S How much did you get paid a day?
M Oh, $2.50 a day.

S That was pretty good money in those days, wasn't it?
M Yeah, it was good money. And so, Charlie _____ he had, you know I have him on <mumbling> Charlie _____ he was a piano player ______ _____ too. He had a song called, somethin' going on with blues. He sure....<mumbling> and all that. His name was Charlie ______ he played that old _____ blues.

S Do you remember what it sounded like?
M No, I don't.

S Mr. Austin told me the other day, he said, Jim,...I mean, Mr. Shaw, he's in Austin, Texas, I keep messing that up, but anyway, Mr. Shaw said, Jim you never hear the blues until you're about 3 o'clock in the morning in a good old, funky low-down blues. <laughing> He said, that's where it's at. So he played me an example. Can you play me...imagine yourself in a club at about 3 o'clock in the morning and they want you to play some low-down blues.
M I'd be tellin 'em, the think about me on a hard street is South Dallas one night, I was tellin' _______ about it last night and at about three in the morning, same thing, he tell you that, it was no lie, it was about three o'clock in the mornin', oh boy _____ ______ black as a car, <Standifer laughing> sittin' in a rockin' chair had a broad in his lap and their <siren in background over voices> and I'm sittin' on that stool <starts playing piano>...______ see, this was in the paper, and so the house ________...Aida Mae...Aida Mae Coy, and when the police hit the door, she runs and jumps in the bed.

S Where was this now? This was recently?
M No.

S Many years ago.
M 1930.

S Okay, go ahead.
M And, uh, and on ______ street in South Dallas. Back on a Saturday night and there wasn't a soul in that house but old Camille Bull (?) that's his name, nigro and he's sittin' there rockin with a broad in his lap and she's _______, sittin' in his lap and I'm sittin on the piano stool and Aida Mae was in the kitchen doin' something, I don't know might of been _______ us some chocolates something, gettin' ready. So, when the police come in, Aida Mae she run and got in the bed. Clothes and all on and those police <mumbling> come in, messing around. And I'm sittin there on the piano, and finally one of them comes up and asks me <mumbling>...playing that piano like he was _____ _____ ______. And all when the ______ comin' ____ ____ ____. Aida Mae pulled the cover up and she was the one who snuck out. I said, 'look here woman', <mumbling>....why don't you go to the doctor and <mumbling and laughing> and she was gone. Why don't you get up there? <laughing>. Get out of this bed! <mumbling> and then the last <mumbling> come out of the bed. Big black ugly negro sitting in a rocking chair with a woman in his lap, a negro woman in the bed, shoes on, <mumbling> and a negro sleepin' and playing the piano. <continues mumbling through laughter>...it was in the paper. We laughed about that, I'll tell you.

S I'd like you to maybe end this section if you would, by playing a blues that you played late at night, I mean....exactly. One of those low-down.

<piano starts playing>

<tape breaks>

<more playing>

S Thank you, Mr. Moore. Mr. Payton, thank you very much too. That's very, very, low-down.
M Yeah, yeah, those ______ water blues.

S It's been a wonderful experience, I want you to know, Mr. Moore, being in your home...
M ...yeah...

S ...I think you are a credit to our race, but more than anything else, you are a credit to your music and you're a credit to Alex Moore.
M Thanks a lot.

S I hope you a long life...
M Yes, sir...

S ...and I hope that every young person in the world sees this tape, in fact, maybe a good way to end today, what would you tell the young, black person, girl or boy, if you had one word to tell them to help the young people do better? Is there anything that you would like to tell them?
M Well, sure! If there's one thing that I would tell them, when you go places, have a good intention in your mind to do the right thing...and don't follow this guy...when a guy goes some place and you run into a friend of yours and he says, 'Let's go to that ______ club, man I know where we can get so and so'. You tell them, you go, you and let's go on and I'll meet you later. Yeah. 'Cause that's the way I used to do. I was _____ _______. Yeah. When you got something to do, don't let nobody turn you around. And don't think that...you don't have to think bad or nothin', but you just got to handle them bad cats. I mean you get enough bad cats 'yeah man, so and so, uh huh, yeah', I'll tell you what, I have to tell it like it is _____ _____ speakin' I told a pile of lies in ____ _____. Yeah. Mama ain't sendin' me nowhere 'cause you never _____ _____ your mama. Man, let's go do this, everybody said, 'Don't go, boy, I've got my phone bill in my pocket'...<mumbling>...I'm done fooling around with you and forget what your mama sent me out to the store. <mumbling>.

S You're not following the crowds, you're doing your own thing.
M Oh, no. Oh, no.

S Mama was a good excuse then, huh?
M Oh, yeah. Well, now, right back then, you know what grandma used to say, "If you can't be the bell cow don't follow with the gang-don't gallop with the gang.

S Right.
M Yeah. If you can't be the bell cow, well, that was the way I was in school. When I was in school from the first beginning in the lower first, and I was ____ ___ nothing, bringing it up to the eighth grade, I was in the highest ____, highest_____, highest ____, highest this, highest _____.

S I think you ought to tell people what you mean by the bell cow. If they're not from Texas they might not know. The bell cow, what is the importance of the bell cow?
M The bell cow was the leader.

S Exactly.
M That's right. In the evening... That's no lie.

S That's right.
M My Auntie lived in West _____. They had cows and hogs.

S And you'd put a bell around her neck.
M ____ ____ ___ that bell around her neck and that evening Aunt Mary come out and all them woods and rows-somebody was telling me about your row, Carry Grove. It just come to me. He was ______ for some kind of Grove. It was Carry Grove. It was, you see, probably kind of liked them hedges. Like when she come out that evening, she was time to milk and all you had to do ????????, you had that loud voice, _____ Rose. With the head down leading the cows. And 5 o'clock, it's liable to be 6:30 when they get to the house. It's not be no 10 miles away, but you know why they come here? They come in grazing. Just grazing along.

S Slowly stop.
M Slowly.

S But they're following that bell cow
M Following the bell cow. They don't get ahead of her either. They stay behind and follow her.

S So if you can't be the bell cow,
M Don't ____ with the man.

S Beautiful. That's a wonderful ending. That's great.

END OF INTERVIEW