Bob Redcross

S = Standifer
R = Bob Redcross

S Could you just introduce yourself and then we'll start from there.
R All right. My name is Bob Redcross.

S Okay, Bob, how long have you been with Dizzy?
R Well, I've been with Diz here on the road now for about 2 years. We've been friends for 40 years.

S How many is that again?
R 40.

S Okay, so you just blew it. I didn't think that you were at least maybe 35 or 40. That white hair is just... Well, you have to be close to me anyway.
R We've been friends for quite a long time and Diz and Lorraine, his wife, they are godmother and godfather to our children.

S Oh, I see. So you know both Lorraine and Dizzy before they were married then, probably.
R Oh, yes. Even before they were married. Dizzy and I became close when we joined Eckstein's band. I was the assistant road manager for Eckstein's band‹he had ___ Fishbach, Charlie Parker and Sarah Vaughn, Dexter Gordon and R. Blake ____.

S So you were with the Eckstein band prior to joining Dizzy's. When he joined them, was he an arranger or manager, or...
R Dizzy was like musical director.

S Oh, musical director.
R He was musical director and he brought arrangements in and he did arrangements also. Yes. In fact, Dizzy had a great deal to do with the formation of the band and its agency.

S Oh. Why did finally he left the band altogether?
R Well, I don't know.

S There have been several stories about it, you know.
R Well I imagine the basic story could possibly be money. That's what I would think. And I'm pretty sure when you have interview B, he will probably tell you the same thing, because it wasn't anything of a personal nature, because we were all the best of friends and always have been. But I could think looking back at the time, I would think that money would be the prime reason. See because Dizzy was beginning to be recognized and was get his recognition and it was worth you know I imagine more than B was able to pay because at that time _______and the band wasn't successful financially. Possibly that would be the thing I would say.

S But it is kind of curious when you think about it though um, in every thing that I have seen of Dizzy Gillespie he's not one to go out for the buck seemingly.
R No but you see you have be worth a certain amount of this to exist you see that would be, I would say that would be a reason. I would really believe that would be a reason. Possible it would be the only reason I would think. Because the band was over loaded with it's a top issue on its over loaded with people had to have, were in demand working our banks____people like Bert Johnson came in later, had Jerry Valentine very talented pianist, trombonist and arranger. These people had worked along time pervious to B's band even thought they were all friends, they all came in and spent time helping out ______didn't stay because the band wasn't making money.

S Who were those big names who were there at the same time as Dizzy was there?
R Well there was a, you begin with Charlie Parker, Dizzy, a, Art Blakey, Sara Vaughn, umm then later Bert Johnson. That's Albert Bert Johnson.

S Right.
R And um, Jerry Valentine lets see...

S That's an incredible array of
R Dexter Gordon,

S There is some incredible array of names when you consider that.
R Well you see all these people and Sara Vaughn like I said before, all these people became they were on their way to stardom individually and they became all became stars in there own right later. It was just some part of it, it was a good band while it lasted it just one of these things. There was no place to sell it. The music they played was so different.

S It is called the Original Bop Band Orchestra right?
R Yeah

S And is it because you had these people who were or is Bop?
R Yeah all the fellows were in that band they all lean toward what at that time I'd guess you'd say, the new progression, the new progressive style of playing jazz, of the old stereo type which would come out and ______ would have apparent stereo type like Roger Hammerstein arrangement and those type of things you know that they played, all the big bands had been build on previously for jazz. This new thing with the advent of Charlie Parker and these young folks they played a different chord progression and rhythmically they played different.

S You were as a rode manager you know Andy Kourek talked about the Fletch Henderson arrangements. He talked about um, how many bands, his included would play these arrangements.
R Absolutely, Fletcher was _______for the formation of so many of the backbones of so many big bands, white bands using his arrangements.

S A Goodwin I think
R Oh Goodwin leaned on him and Horis leaned on them. His band was built on them.

S Could you tell the difference though when lets say when Alex Eckstein's band was not playing the arrangements that Henderson arrangements were so popular then? Could you begin to discern quite a different sound the bop sound as a posed?
R Yeah it was a way I say honestly an expression of the expression of um, the choruses were made up with the old thing. You could almost anticipate what was going to come next. Um they go to chorus _____and then maybe a sharp chorus or something like that maybe typical of type of writing that

S The Henderson, are you talking about the Henderson type.
R The Henderson type and these things that came out of ________and some of these jazzy vocal _______ and run of the mill big bands _______ a lot of black arrangers _______ and a few people like that who build other bands around there arrangements who arrange for Teddy Helo. They had a lot of instrumentalists who did a lot of writing, but they all wrote in that almost that same type of ______. But these things are going to start coming out with Ted Cameron, and Dizzy and Monk and what not. They had a different expression and it was such that, it was built around rhythm, I thought and it's the way it was built-- a lot of breaks and things that were not conducive for dancing. People would stand and be amazed listening and watching, because they hadn't heard, and they couldn't dance, when _______ was still popular, but they couldn't get off like that, you know, because the rhythm would take you take you one place and they would segue going some where else and it was build it was a different type of writing.

S I'm going to ask Dizzy about that because
R He can explain it better then I can because you know he's musically rounded and you know I can only say like in the sense like a laymen I understood what I heard and probably understood it more then what the average laymen did

S You know Hampton put his foot in it when he said when he said um, that bebop um music was it and with Ree Bop was rhythm, that that was a bunch of bull
R Oh come on, Hamp was, he's a friend of mine too, Hamp was commercializes in every opportunity I would say on something. Bebop was given was just a name that they gave the music because it seamed to express the phrasing, guys said 'bedelede bop bop, bedelede bop bop, debedeledelelelelelelelel bop bop'

S Also that very strong beat on the first beat.
R Yes see it was actually what was build around the rhythm of a drummers foot on the base drum, you know 'bum bum' you know and it's an accent and they just called it bee bop, I don't know why they could have called it something else, you know because they in expressing I would hear the guys sitting around be ripping, like making up head things, 'mop mop' in fact we use to have some sessions up in my room in the hotel in Chicago, and um, we named some if these things, mop mop blues and all kinds of things, but this was all build on the rhythm, rhythm, rhythm and Hamp went into a thing I remember he always used to rebop thing it had nothing to do with it. Had nothing to do with that.

S I am going digress, I am going to ______ here. Now you said you were a road manager for the _______ Band and then you worked, what other people you worked for in that capacity?
R In that capacity, I stayed with D for ahh after the band broke up and I went back with D in started doing single and I had positioned secretary with him for quite along time until ______ people demanded ______wear these big black shirts you know, named it Mr. Becall so he had such a demand for them, he asked me to go into New York and try to set up a company which I did. I went in

S Oh to reproduce that look
R And we had Mr. B shirt company for a few years and through handling it I ah got involved people wanting to some people couldn't wear that particular collar just exactly the way it was manufactured, but I learned to custom work and I was able to make alterations or make uh measure and do things like that to make the same effect and I got involved in custom shirts you know so I got off on that my self and I stayed in that along five, six eight years or something.

S Was that in addition to still being
R No by my self, D went to Europe and stayed for 1956 I think he went and stayed for a year and a half or something like that.

S Had he was he married and had the daughter that I see him on the cover with at that time?
R Gee you mean was he married to Caroline?

S I guess so ______ is that beautiful daughter that you see
R That's true

S Ok
R Yeah (coughing) that's the daughter that's Carol, he's got four children, ____________, it was Quincy Jones

S We just taped Quincy two weeks ago we went out to the west coast and taped him and um, what's the guitar player um, Benson, George Benson, quite and interesting this is for the ______ St thing that we did. Let me ask is it, of the people that you worked for well let me ask you, is Dizzy hard to work for?
R No Dizzy's not hard to for; Dizzy's not hard to work for at all.

S What are some of the idiosyncrasies that you have to deal with though, and every one has them.
R Well I don't know it would be maybe difficult if I didn't understand him and didn't understand the person. I would say he's not exactly completely a conventional person because Dizzy seamed preoccupied all the time. In his own thoughts. His mind would be running seemingly going in one direction and something ________ else, I look at him and I'm amazed, because I would be very uncomfortable, I think he's got four or five different things in his mind at the same time, and consequently you find that if you say something to him, you come out like your just being awakened. I guess what being involved in the ____ of thought.

S Is he a businessman? I mean honest a candid opinion; I mean most musicians are notorious for being poor
R Dizzy is a very good businessman, when it comes to staying on top of his work. Dizzy works and can get more work and can raise the ______ on what he can do. And he stays on the phone incessantly from the time he wakes up to the time he goes to bed he's on the phone, he's in the job, somebody's calling, he's available to be called, he's always calling somebody, spreading it he'll be in Europe he'll call Asia, he'll call Africa, he'll call anywhere if he thinks of it. Consequently with all this Dizzy does most of his own booking

S Oh he does
R Theoretically I'd say yes that he doesn't actually doesn't get him self he OK's _______agencies submit to him, but person, for his own personal contacts Dizzy has more people calling him from all over the world to try to arrange engagements.

S Do you think he's made any money from being a musical?
R Oh yes, sure.

S Well a better question would be has he been able to keep any of his money that he's made as a musician?
R Well I wouldn't know to what extent he's been able to ________ ......I do know that he's not a person that allows him self to be in dept so he's a very good manager that is he and Mrs. Gillespie.

S I ask that question because so many of the musicians I've interviewed have been very candid that they have been so involved with they're music they have left business responsibilities to others and some times they were burned.
R Well there was a time ah when Dizzy went through that too leaving his business to entirely to someone else's hands and he's been burned to the extent that he learned which is a long time ago fortunately that he has been able to learn from it and he is very much on top of his business, very much on top of it. Daily, every hour on the hour he can tell you if you ask him he can look in the book, some of his books he can tell you where he's going to be and what time and when and what not and what he's he knows just exactly what's happening. And he naturally has to have um agents booking agents and such _______ and ah (background noise) _______ to any one except ah, he had an exclusive contract with Columbia Artists Management for concerts.

S And that's different from Columbia Records ah
R That's different, they ah they specialize in concerts of all types, from the Philharmonic Symphony type people and they opera singers and all types of people they have big concerts he signs exclusively with them for the period of October to April each year the rest of the year is left.

S Do you deal when you, current responsibility do you ever have the necessity to deal with any of those persons?
R Oh definitely all the time

S Such in what capacity?
R Well to ______ on different things follow up on contacts on people we have concert we have a ______concert as soon as we leave here, now the first on is on Tennessee, or New York I have been in touch with the people up there who are giving this because they have to arrange for certain different things. We have a request for to have luncheons or pres parties, we have requests to do um _________tape the show at 7 they want to know_______ I clear all of that and give them an understanding of what can be done and what can't be done.

S That sort of answers, I was going to ask what is a Bob Redcross, not just you but any Bob Redcross that maybe works with Ella or with Roy,
R I don' t know...

S Well it differs
R That would fluctuate and differ according to the person and ah,

S The amount of responsibilities given
R and the amount of responsibilities allotted to them. In my particular case I had, I have been fortunate enough to have uh, gained enough experience in so many faceted of the business, that I can function pretty well I would say in a number of areas. Like I do as a matter of course, I set all of Dizzy's lights, and since his programs are done at lib, I prefer to run the follow spot light my self because the cues will come faster, I can't write a cue out for someone else to do it, I run it my self.

S Would you be doing that on a place like this too?
R There is no follow spot here; if there were a follow spot here I would be doing it every show.

S All the more reason that should be you because there might be one might not be one, in which case you'll have to improvise it.
R If there is one there I'll run it. Because it's much easier to set his lights and run it and run the light cues and I'll use a head set and um, be in contact with the stage lighting man who gives the cues, etc., etc., etc. But that's just one phase. The other thing is like arranging transportation, the facilities, uh, uh, having payroll on the road, um...and in some instances following up on persons who inquire about um, wanting to use his services at a future date. I make up contracts, you know, this is all this all comes out years...

S Now, what is this job called? That you're doing?
R I would be designated I would put, say, a label on the said, "road manager" but that is a little bit, my particular job was a little bit different. I'd been a road manager exclusively for other people. I was road manager for Brooke Benton (sp?).

S Oh, you were?
R Yeah, I was road manager for um. well, I had little Frankie Lyman (sp?) I became his personal manager after awhile. And um, let's see, you know I'm trying to think I don't think that I was road manager for anyone else...because, I personally, I personally don't like to work for a person unless I like the person.

S Right. But again, the job varied with individuals, huh?
R It varied with individuals...like, see, a lot of people have, um, lawyers who handle their um, their finances and direction, and a lot of people have booking agencies that does nothing but exclusively book things and they'll have a personal manager who okay's these arrangements...

S Right
R Even if they...these are people who leave their business entirely up to someone else's...

S Right

S I talked with ah, several times, ah, the gentleman that works with Ella, he's a white guy. He's been with her for 25 years...
R Yeah

S I should know his name, but I can't remember.
R I don't know him by name, I'm talking ______.

S Yeah, I'm sure you do. But he, pretty much said the same thing you did except that I think that Ella has her bookings um, a lot of the work that is done is put in the hand of the, the um, well, like the booking agency or this business. But, evidently he does a great number of things you do...
R He does, yeah; there are a certain number of things that you must do as a road manager. But, again, as I say, um, if you're personally involved, with a person, it takes away that thing of 'working'. You don't only work for a person, you work with the person...

S ...with her, right.
R See that's the difference. I don't really like to work for anybody. _______ ______ _____I'd go work for myself.

S Now, you're talking about a hell of a lot of trust, too, though.
R Well...

S That there is between the two of you.
R Yeah, well the thing is, is if there's no trust then I don't want to be there anyway.

S (laughing)
R You know I couldn't make that. That's why you ask me about road manager I couldn't think. You know I've actually only been road manager for one person other than Eckstein, and, and this was really for, for um, Benton (?).

S Oh.
R And, um then I started out road manager for Fankie Lyman and um, Morris Levy finally gave me his contract as personal manager. And um, but I just can't make working for anybody, people, people can be very problematic. They have problems. And you're close to them, you want to share those problems.

S Getting back to Bill Eckstein now, he's quite a different person, well, everybody's different of course, but quite different from Dizzy Gillespie.
R Oh yes.

S And, what he did and what he was doing is somewhat different even though he had the original _____ group, or what is said to be that....
R Well, see...____ _____ ______.

S Yeah, um...tell me a little about that was it called, an orchestra or a band?
R It was a band. They used to book a band/orchestra, you know...they kind of______.

S And after, did it fold after all these people started leaving or just what?
R Well, it, it finally he cut it down to, I think he cut it down to eight pieces out of _____ out of forty-six or forty-seven _____ point seven then he dropped it all together. People were buying, you know, and he was beating what was, at that time, a dead horse. No one could dance by that music. So, you had, you had a very select choice type of an audience and that is not enough to pay the freight.

S Right.
R Going to a place and there's nobody there.

S __________.
R Almost _____ _____ you play 'Stardust'. (laughing)

S (laughing) Well, that's what Andy was saying, yeah, he had really two clientele's, those that really wanted the cotillions...
R Yeah...

S ...these country club dances and they wanted to hear the same kind of rubhub mundane kinds of music and if you happened to merit it and try to do something different like what was bop, then um...
R ...(mumbling)... in St. Louis, go in there and they would ______ next time, because his voice would become _______ _______ but he'd join his band. The next time, band. And the bands playing, you can't sing every number, you sing a set, you know? The bands playing and the people can dance....

S Yeah...
R This old guy walks up and says, "Hey, can't you guys play 'Stardust' or something?"

S (laughing)
R He said "No, we don't have that in the book." He said, "Well, can't you play something else besides, besides" what we were playing. The guy says, "We don't like it", we said, "We don't like the joint".

S Parting would take place right there, huh?
R You know, we'll leave. And he was just that way he was this old man, and always has been, you know. And he liked this band, he liked the guys he knew what they were doing, he was happy, you know, he was happy with it. Wasn't making any money.

S Let me ask you another question. This is personal, candid. Do you think Bill Eckstein should continue, um, continuing as he's doing occasionally, in terms of singing, do you think he should stop now and let us remember him as he was, or to go on, what do you think?
R Anyone with his experience, his knowledge, and particularly his role in show business, he's a showman, and anyone with his showmanship there's no reason for them not to stay in the business. I mean, I don't know when the last time you caught at it. The last time that I caught him, he was playing to a crowded house and he got nothing but rousing, standing ovations when he came off. That was at that um, new place, in um, Manhattan on 73rd street, what's the name of it?

S Um...
R That Moonlight Club at the....

S Oh, the disco, no, no, it couldn't be that place, um, that's for tonight
R Oh, um, Sarg (?) just finished there. Um, ah...I can't remember the name of it now. It's that new place a new supper club. A supper club, it's a class place...

S Um hum.
R And it's not a ____ (gem?) though. You see, uh, he plays those kinds of places. He plays uh, more unless he's got me to that level...where he's ______ _______.

S How old is Bill Eckstein?
R He's um, sixty-four. He's sixty-four and he'll be sixty-five, I think, in July.

S Alright, there are some people who say that um, Bill Eckstein is a case in point, that women that are older seem to be more graceful than sometime men, in their old age as creative artists. Take Alberta Hunter, take ______ Wallace, and take um, Ella Fitzgerald, take Sarah Vaughn, take, take, take, and females. How many men do you know, singers especially...
R Well, male singers, you see, your male singer who sings romantic tunes you know, let's face it....

S What, a dirty old man or something?
R Well, it's not a dirty old man, but it becomes for the younger women, now, the younger girls, it becomes a stretch of the imagination to actually get romantic over that individual. You can close your eyes and hear the song...

S But, um,
R As far as that matters, I mean, you know, you say Ella Fitzgerald, I mean she's no baby either...

S Right
R I mean some young man might not get romantic over her, but he can close his eyes and be ______ by the sounds coming from there, you know? But, the thing is that these people have a place and God knows they should...everybody should be able to build into that when they go into the business. Get the longevity out of it. Uh, you have new people coming and looking to appreciate the ability of an artist to turn a song/phrase and how an artist delivers a song. And you have these old people who have lived through all the romantic parts of it...they've ____ _____ you know?

S But you still didn't answer my question.... I...
R What's your question?

S My question, I guess, is that the women, older women, and can be very old women...
R ...yes, sir

S ...seem to continue to strive, especially currently, with the older men...
R ...you're speaking of singers, exclusively?

S ...singers, yeah, singers
R ...well, I...

S ...well, maybe your point, is part, part of it was answered course that maybe younger women's kind of hard to take...
R ...yeah, it is...it's hard to be romantic

S ...the appearance...
R ...you see because the singer, a singer delivers a ballad or delivers a love song and...

S ...it's personal...
R ...and it becomes a certain amount of personal, personality is placed in it other than the musical part that comes out from the vocals. Um, I don't know, maybe we are trying to be a little more gracious where women are concerned; maybe it's because of the shivelry or something that emanates from our culture, I don't know. I've never really looked at that. But um, I would say this, the women ones, not able to deliver, musically, but they, most importantly, _____ _______, but they can do it satisfactorily...it's time to quit.

S Well, I think we're going to end this and I'm supposed to interview her, uh, sometime between now and late summer that's what she said... R ...yeah,

S And...
R ...see when her voice begins to crack all over the place and you can't make those notes, if you play an instrument, or singing, because singing is an instrument...

S ...right.
R ...well, it's time to quit. But as long as you're able to deliver...and God knows, I mean, if you tell her if you have to sing a lot of ____ _____ and not only because it's my friend, but I been not only myself but _____ _____ ____ sure can reach and get them. You know. And he still does. He may reserve some of it, not do it every night or every show, but I tell you what you do, him, like all other singers, let a singer walk in...

S ...and (mumbling)
R ...you see a transformation

S ...right
R ...absolutely...then you realize why you should quit, you know, you let a singer walk in and he'll reach and get something that singers do not sing all of the time because they are hard songs and (engine starting...muffles voices) they'll go right down there in front and they'll sing to them, forget all about the other people, and sing to them.

(break in Tape)
R Um, for a person to know what their capabilities once were, and try and can't do it, that would be very disappointing and very heartbreaking and I imagine that would cause some of them to go off the deep end, or whatever. But uh, well, here, right here in town, we got uh, he just opened yesterday and he's no baby. And he hasn't got the same, uh, absolute vibrancy in his voice...

S ...who is this?
R ...Sinatra (horn beeping)

S ...oh, Frank Sinatra's here?
R ...he just opened yesterday. And he's sold out three months before he came.

S (laughing)
R And, um, that's not all attested to his personality. He can still sing. See, singing is like anything else, it's an art. And a lot of people, when they're younger, will over sing and not sing because they are trying too hard. And uh, the person gets older they learn how to sing.

S And reserve some of the very...
R ...well, they know, like they used to talk about Earl Garner (sp?) They say, oh, Garner only plays the pretty notes, they ain't pieces, but he only plays the pretty ones. Well they learned to sing that way, they sing the things that mean something. A phrase, you turn a phrase and it's, it's a singer singing. It's not a person trying to practice something...

S ...a note, you know
(break in tape)

S Bob, I'd like to know, um....
(tape moves at normal speed sounds like Fast Forward...silence follows)

END OF TAPE