Son Seals

S = Standifer
Seals = Son Seals
I = ?

S This is Mr. Son Seals were at his motel, The Lamp Post Motel in Ann Arbor. It's April 4th 1987. I suppose how we should begin this is... how Professor Standifer has done it in the past. We focus on a little bit of your early background, where you're from that kind of stuff. A brief over view of maybe your family, how you got started in music. Then proceed in how you got into the business talk a little bit about the business and then talk about the Blues in general. What you feel about that, and then a, then we'll just kind of go on from there. So maybe you'd like to tell us about, from what I understand you are from Arkansas?
Seals Arkansas. Yes that is right. Osceola Arkansas, it's about 15 miles north of Memphis Tennessee. And you know that I had thought at the time that I was growing up as a kid that, you know, that was a heck of an area for Blues Music. You may or may not know that my Dad ran the little country juke joint there you know and he had a lot of entertainment and due to the fact that we lived right in the back of the place, you know that I had a chance to be exposed to the music at a real early age, when I was just a real little fella you know. I guess that's probably one of the reasons that I ended up you know being so wrapped up in the music I guess being around it all my life so to speak because every night just about man there was something going on there you know if it wasn't the local guys, like Albert King, for instance lived there you know. Albert you know used to work a day job as a truck driver. Hauling grain back and forth to Memphis, and every night they would come around and come in there and rehearse until two o'clock in the morning, sometime my dad had to run them out of there you know and on the weekends he would always get so many guys of it wasn't local he would get some of the guys out of the Memphis area some of them would come over and play you know, this is how I had a chance to see people at a real early age you know like Robert Nighthawks, Sideboard Williams people like this you know because a lot of these people were just getting started you know. A lot of the guys come from that area you know, King Carlo, Bobby Bland, you know Deal Muddy you know at one time they worked together on a song, you know and so seeing all of this you know as a kid you know it just kind of got in my bones you know got in my system seeing this going on every night, you know I wanted to create myself, wanted to do what I saw other people doing because I was enjoying what I was hearing you know. And after reaching a certain age I took up a great interest in drums, you know I wanted to try and play drums you know I know my dad used to take me to the movies and we'd see these big bands on the screen and I you know like Tommy Dorsey and all these guys you know with the big bands, just seemed more like anything else a drummer just crossed my eye you know, I just wanted to be a drummer you know, and finally like I say after I got to be a certain age my dad bought me a little set. I started off, but before I got the set there was a guy called Odell Mitchell I'll never forger man he used to play with Albert King and some of the other guys around there local but he used to leave his drum set a lot there at my dads place you know and he had a day job where he worked it was like right across the street from us you know it was across the highway that was a place they called the Rusty Inn you know it was a place where everyone would stop ongoing through town cause highway 61 was at the time ran right through the middle of town you and it would catch all the people coming through so this guy worked there but, he would get a break everyday around 12:30 1:00 he'd come over sometime and just look in the place and he a few times he caught me up on stage fooling with his drums.

S ha
Seals I thought he was going, cause I was a little Bettie fellow then so hiding behind a big drum set you know, back then man a bass drum was a bass drum, you know, not like now they have the small things you know like this t hing was a big field drum man, I'm standing up man but you still can't see anything but the top of my head...so he don't know what I'm doing...But he was nice about it man, he'd invite us up to try to help him. He helped me to get myself straightened out with some things that I didn't know what the heck I was doing you know. I went on from there...like I said my dad finally got me a set you know and I fooled around with drums for a long time but my eye was always on guitar because there was always guitar players around you know this was what it was about, Guitar players pianos harmonica players and a few horn blowers you know and more that anything the guitar you know so this is where I wanted to be in life playing and watching the guitar players. As time went by I finally caught myself picking up peoples guitars when their back was turned you know kind of fooling around with it in fact my dad played you know, he had a guitar hanging up side the wall and I'd catch his back turned and I would be up there fooling with his guitar you know, But he decided too after he saw that I an interest in guitar he decided he'd try to help me some too you know. He would sit down and show me a few cords you know eventually I finally learned to hear with the tune you know, it kind of went from there I went from one to the other, I played drums but I had a great interest in guitar, it was good because if I hadn't a I don't think I would have been able to learn anything because I stayed on drums a lot but every chance I got I'd fool with the guitar you know. Finally it got to the place where I just turned my attention to the guitar and a you know it just went from there I just progressed little by little.

I how a...at what age are we talking about here, did you start the drums when you were five or...well you make that impression that...
Seals I would think that ah I would be at least six or seven years old when I had an interest in wanting to play drums. I can remember like I say as a little fellow going to the movies and things you know and I was too small to go out by myself I know that so I had to be seven eight years old...maybe six I don't know and ah like I say as far as I can remember I was playing was trying to play I was beating on the counters with knives and forks you know tying up all the silverware you know playing to the radio and the juke box you know and it just seemed like I say it was as far back as I can remember I was trying to play something you know. So...but actually I guess I had to be at least oh, fourteen, fifteen years old when I started to play a little bit you know, some of the guys would come to my dads you know once they found out that I could you know keep a little time they would come and get him to let me go out and play. I was the youngest thing around man we were going in places and joints and playing you know and ah these guys like I say would come to my dad and get him to let me go out with them. So I started at a real early age, when finally it took place when I would go in the places around and they knew who I was and they were always trying to play you know and because I do know by the time I actually got into guitar you know real seriously trying...well I thought I'd learned something I must have been around seventeen you know about eighteen years old or something like this you know. Because like I say before I was twenty years old I was being my own man you know I had ah I don't know four or five guys together and we were working all around Missouri and we'd go to Tennessee and ah we worked in Little Rock...we worked in Little Rock quite a bit you know. In fact I worked in a club there for about four years me and my own band.

S what was the name of that club?
Seals ah... it was Shay Paris...

S Shay Paris
Seals yeah...that was in Little Rock

S what time was this about?
Seals oh this must have been ah sixties maybe early sixties...yeah they were cause I went to Chicago for the first time in sixty-two and I know that I had been working that club a couple years so it was in the sixties.

S about your family, you talk about your father are you from a large family.
Seals Yeah I'm the last of thirteen kids

S OH! Are you married yourself?
Seals oh yeah I am...

S do you have a family?
Seals I have ten kids myself...

S good for you that's for sure...can you remember about the first time you went out and actually made money performing as you said at about twenty years old you went out and had your own combo, can you tell us a little about that? How did you get it together? I can imagine that you evolved into the business as you say but how you got your group together and ah your first gig so to speak when you actually put money in your pocket or was that just kind of an evolutionary thing as well?
Seals well you know it kind of fell into place I guess because of ah working with some of the other older guys, it was a guy that finally ended up being my brother-in-law, we played guitar, we called old Walter. Walter used to use me quite a bit on drums you know we played quite a few clubs around there. Blytheville and all up in Missouri and ah all around town say twenty thirty miles. It was always some kind of work to do and something to play at you know and ah back then the other clubs like the clubs you see us playing now you know are white clubs. All white now you know where speaking of kids, the age that you see come in now this didn't happen there, because they wouldn't hear of that then, it was bad it was taboo.

S the white and black issue?
Seals No...no, the younger age group like you see now you noticed last night that the kids in the club there were you know twenty-five's twenty-two I guess maybe twenty-one I think some of them wasn't even that old you know. Well that didn't happen see there we played for forty fifty year old and on up age, we played oh ah stardust deep purple smoke gets in your eyes what ever you know this kind of thing.

S not the blues?
Seals yeah blues tunes you know but this age group, and people would ask for that kind of music, they'd ask for anything you know. They'd come you know and you'd learn it because they would come up sometime and give you a tip beginning your salary, so you'd learn how to play everything you know so. And working around with ah guys like Walton, Apple and a few of the others around you know I liked ah where to go who the people were who to talk to I always had it in the back of my mind if I'm jump because I wanted to get my own band you know and I remember ah after talking to a few guys and getting some guys together rehearsing and going on still working around with the other groups and talking to a club owner there, a club they called the River club and I remember that was my first gig I'll never forget that night.

S now where is this?
Seals this is in my home town Osceola and ah we drove there on a Friday night and beck then shake dances was the big thing you know they liked to see girls dancing and things you know so there was two or three girls that was into that you know and then you know, all bands you know, every band you see just about was to try to put together some kind of a floor show you know. We had a lot of guys you know that was into dancing tap dancing, you know bug dancing picking up tables with their teeth and dancing trying flips of all kinds you know, and then they'd top it off with the shim dancer you know that would be the main event. And ah I put together with this girl that I liked and I talked to the club owner and he agreed to give me a try you know and it worked out man, we did okay we had our kiddy box and like I say, sometime our tips would over run our salary you know and we'd put our kiddy box down there at the end of the stage you know and people would come up and make a request or they liked what you played and they would just put something in the box man you know. On that night we made pretty close to one hundred bucks in tips you understand and man hey, this is the right business, this is it. And ah it kind of went from there I ...from that day on I remember like I say being my first job from that night on I always wanted to try to have my own band and I kept working at it you know and from time to time go and play with other people I worked with Albert King a lot you know after that you know I worked with Al when I was a drummer for a while you know and ah I worked some with Hooker after that and Robert Nighthawk you know and a lot of different people and ah...

S That brings to mind two questions one, you said you always wanted to have a band, now when your getting into the business like that did you take on all those business chores, booking and that kind of stuff by your self, or did you ...
Seals Well I'll tell you, my father was a lot of help in that area cause if it hadn't been for him I don't think I would have been able to pull all that off because I didn't know anything about it you know but him having been the business himself he had been ah in show business years and years before I was born you know, he speaked old radical minister show a long time back it was Wilcox or something but anything about business you know like there are I didn't know what the heck beyond my salary that I knew that I was making at that time beside me I didn't know where to go, where to start mess around you know, didn't know when I'd be treated right or not so he was a lot of help to get me started in that you know. It wasn't until I'd taken the job in Little Rock that I actually had a chance to get some experience, cause I was into that one club like I say for four years but we did play those jobs around you know, we played there three or four nights a week, but there was other work you know, I got into Hot Spring and that was the between the time they used to have the horse races and every year and so the club owner knew other places and people to talk to get us some work. Most of the groups out of Littlerock would go to Hot Spring and work on scene so he got me into that and that helped me to get a little bit more experience you know about taking care of a little business and what not, learning how, there's a lot to do mess around money wise when it comes to making deals and stuff you know. So it kind of gradually fell into place you know the business end of it but the ________ I didn't know what the hell.

S Did a the den use that you played usually primarily black denuse in Arkansas, I'm just trying to think back in fifty-seven or so was when they had such big problems in Littlerock.
Seals Yeah... Littlerock they did have problems there but you know you'd be surprised like the areas around close to my home town see like Littlerock was about 170 miles from my home town so it would be far away from that town but the clubs in the immediate area I mean like around Briars Ville Arkansas which is around 17 miles from my home town you go to ...across the state line...the state lines only 20 miles and you go to Hay taco's Hills, I don't know how many other towns still in Missouri with places like this, and if you did go into what was considered to be you know an all white club you'd ah...at that time it would be just that, that's true but people, as far as we were concerned we were treated right you know, because they knew they were hiring an all black band an they wanted the kind of music that we were playing you know. We played everything from the jukebox and we'd play all the stuff from the twenty's, we just go on back. We were fortunate enough to have an old guy with us called Horace Moore his name was Johnny Moore but everybody called him Horace. Horace was one of BB Kings first piano players, he was an old guy he was ah might have been in his sixties at that time so due to the fact that we had somebody like him that knew all this old stuff that they wanted to hear man like...they could call anything that would go back twenty thirty years and Horace knew it you know and he would teach it to us you know so if we didn't know it we'd have a little rehearsal .So that was no problem with us you know, the band we'd go places and play man you know and ah it would be just like now when we go into these places you know. So in fact I've never had to experience a lot of this stuff you know, playing different places myself because I don't know if we played black clubs we played black clubs you know if we played white clubs we played white clubs and so I never had you know any kind of problem.

S Looking over some of the tapes from the collection it seems that a number of the older blues artists have run into that problem so your kind of saying that's not quite the same as it used to be or seems not to be.
Seals No, I'm not saying that, I knew it existed you know even during the time that I'm talking about but we were just fortunate enough even ...you know it surprised me cause even though I started out there in Littlerock around my home town you know there was never a lot of that I mean it just didn't happen. It happened all around us but it just didn't happen to us why I don't know. Cause the one reason being, like just say if you and I damn near grew up together we know one an other already and all of a sudden all this stuff started happening all around us you know that this person or that person couldn't get along it still didn't affect what you and I were doing we still enjoyed what we were doing you know, meaning the people right there where I come from you know it just didn't change you know, everybody just continued to get along the way they was always getting along, it just happen that way.

S about your earlier days what was the ensemble that you started out with is it kind of ...I notice now you've incorporated the trombone and the clarinet and saxophone which makes a great sound. Was it similar to back then or was it...
Seals well there for awhile this would happen like ah not more or less a straight thing because ah you know I remember back home like for instance Albert, Al King he had like ah everybody needed to pull together in that band man he had three horns and a piano player a bass, the whole thing you know but that was a lot of money going down but all the guys that wanted to play would play and if they found out that you was playing somewhere tonight and they weren't working they was going to come play always, so you let them come on with you from the beginning the area and the town was small and not that far apart you know like they'd say okay Son Seals or Albert or whoever's playing bars through the night they'd jump in their cars and come up there and bring their horns and play anyway you know so the people didn't have to invite them they'd show up and get there about the same time once they found out you were playing. But you know that was a habit but as a rule you know you would say okay ah, hey man I got a four piece group they could only afford so much, so the first thing their going to ask you is who many you got in the group? Well there's just four of us or five of us what ever you know and that was about it maybe lead guitar, rhythm guitar, ah which I tell you one thing there used to be not a lot of and ah it didn't really catch on until it caught on was the bass guitar there used to wouldn't be a whole lot of bass guitar all the time. If the guy didn't have an upright doghouse bass on the electric guitar and somebody came along years later you know, what they would use would be two guitars you know, we used to take and run the second guitar if we really wanted to make it sound like a bass still it was two guitar ah we would tune it down to a roar and ah we would tone it down an d get a bass tone out of it like we do now with bass guitar we'd use two guitars you know, very seldom would you see three guitars on stage like you do now . You're saying something speaking of a bass guitar, and a rhythm guitar, like the lead you know and ah in the later years when the four string bass guitar came along you know guitar style then they finally, gradually caught on. Mostly we'd be two guitars, piano and drums.

S When did you ah...you were in Arkansas for years you said, how long did you go before you went to Chicago? How did that develop?
Seals Like I say I would visit Chicago cause I had kin folks there for one thing and then I worked for______ for a while, and that's where Earl was from, Earl lived in Chicago so he used to come south every year and maybe spend ah two or three months riding around playing in nothing but the south you know Arkansas, Mississippi, and around you know, and I went to Chicago in sixty-two and ah I had a brother-in-law who was crazy about blues you know and as good as he was he'd take me around to all the blues clubs you know and ah I had never thought about it in that sense before but I guess I never had no reason to until after he'd taken me out to see the different clubs and the people that I ran into , the people that I met. Everybody I'd meet was from Arkansas, Mississippi, and Alabama Georgia you know and musically I was hearing the same thing that we were playing at home.

S in Chicago...
Seals they were playing the same thing, so I said to myself you know, damn you know it's the same thing that ah is happening at home. And that stuck with me you know I say Chicago ah other then just being a bigger town was like being right at home musically you know it's the same thing and like I say it stayed in my mind and ah you know as the years went by you know I didn't forget that and finally in seventy-one ah Johnny Russo my dad passes and so I said well you know if I want to try to do anything in this business you know I've got to make a move away from that year you know I'm looking around and there's a cotton field over there and there's a cotton field over here so you know it's not coming from these cotton fields so I said that maybe Chicago was the only thing I could think of that was like I say musically basically the same thing as what was happening right here just a bigger scene and everybody I'd met was from the south and I used to say if you go to Chicago and go to meeting people you know everybody was from down south. So that's one of the reasons that I went to Chicago like I say I've been to a lot of places man you know and ah where the music you know do well and ah but ah I get to find place like Chicago where they got the music six or seven nights a week ah now I would go out there every night and find a blues bar and find a blues band somewhere like every night of the week you know and you can't say this about the old city... that maybe you would have an audience there for you and places that provided you know and bring it to the people like that.

S When you went down did you meet Muddy Waters at that time in Chicago?
Seals ah...not right away but I had met Muddy...

S you worked with him...
Seals yeah I had met Muddy in Arkansas but you know I was young. He didn't remember me you know ah but Muddy and I ... I got the Alligator in seventy-three, because my first album in seventy-three and seventy-four, Muddy and I did a show in Galesburg Illinois, some university I remember.

S Eastern Illinois I think...
Seals ah-ha could have been lets see ah Galesburg ah I can't remember the name of the university but I'll never forget that because Blind John Davis also was on the show. The first time I met John, ah Bruce of Alligator called me and asked me he say would you mind picking up a guy and letting him ride and Little John was such a character, he said would you mind picking up a guy and letting him ride with you, you know he's on the show with you and I said well okay...who is he and where is he at? He gave me the address and the name and said the guy id blind but his wife is going with him so he won't be any problem you know to take care of and everything you know so I said okay that sounds alright and so we picked John up man, we got to his place you know and one of the guys got out and rang the door bell you know the lady she came out you know and he got back in the van and sat back down you know, so driving on down the street you know I guess its understandable when people are blind you know naturally they get there sense of direction and where they at and what not you know form somewhere else I guess I don't know, but he's talking you know and he had got started you know and just blab, blab, blab, blab, you know , so I've been driving and driving I mean three or four minutes you know so you think maybe he would lose sense of where we at you know and so like there was a traffic light coming up you know and he said blab, blab, blab, ah yes son pull over there when you get to that red light there in front of that liquor store so my lady can go in and get me shot.

S Ha,ha...he had a good sense of smell huh?
Seals I said oh man this cat is something, but you know that old man was a lot of fun man I really got to like John and he went to ah Mexico city ah it was the last thing he and I got a chance to do before he died and ah man you talk about a character man that old guy was something else man you know.

S and you worked with ah he was on the venue with Muddy Waters.
Seals yeah him and I was like I say that was a good break for me to get a chance to be on the show with these guys because you know Muddy had already had his people at that time and you know I got exposed to a big audience you know so to be seen with them it gave a chance to get a little bit of us too you know, then Muddy and I ah some months later I was on the bill with him again out in Nebraska you know people still talk to me about that now when I was there a few months back and ah they still have old posters up in this place they call the Zoo Bar. And they got a wall of posters and they go way back and they still got that poster up of Muddy that show of Muddy and I you know, and people that was there still remember and talk to me about it you know. So that was good you know...I had a chance to do in fact Muddy was on that program with us in Mexico City and John finally came together again all three of us, plus Coco Chill was on that and ah Taj Mohall...

S He was in Ann Arbor ...
Seals Taj Mahall?

S just two nights ago.
Seals Taj is a good friend of mine too man. I just talked to a lady last ah Saturday night he played in Washington D.C., theirs is a lady there writing a book about Taj Mohall, and she's ah trying to talk to everybody she can that knows Taj and come in to contact with him you and got a chance to know him but ah you know Taj spoke to her about me. I saw Taj here not to long ago in Chicago he played ah the whole weekend, he'd be playing there so we came by and that was the first time I saw him I guess I two or three years you know and so after that he must to of ah, told this lady about ah in fact I know he did, cause she did mention the fact that he told her I was in Chicago. She found out we was going to D. C., she's writing this book on him and I think it's going to be good man. I talked to the lady and she talked to me for a long time and she's been talking to some good people about stuff, it ought to be an interesting book.

S Your career would you say has been started in about the mid to late fifties, so that's thirty years, would that be a close approximation?
Seals that would be pushing pretty good, yeah.

S If you could kind of think back about it, how would you say the music has changed in those thirty years, or for that matter the blues has changed? It seems like a number of people have written about the blues, have talked about its country roots, talked about how the urban atmosphere has had an effect on it, has brought up the idea that electricity and the electric guitar had an impact on it. How would you say the last thirty years in American culture or American popular music has had an affect on you as an artist and your music?
Seals Well I guess it's changed some what but see what some people don't know about blues is...first let me say this okay they say, the blues, they think in this one area in music is well blues has got to be for people that's really down and out and they had it you know and cried over their beer and milk and everything it's a fact you know and this ah...what they don't understand in other area of music is that you can have a lot of enjoyment and fun out of the music and they don't realize that just as well okay being crying in your beer music if you will that there's also a bright side to the music where people got up and danced and stomped and man we hit the bandstand and they hit the floor and you couldn't see the people for dust you know flying about the floor you know these old places where we played out in the country and what not they...that the music always had have the energy you know as well so as the laid back side you know the slow drag and what ever you know and ah it may have been , the whole thing was kept back I guess if you will up till the people picked it up then the rock view and what not and brought it forth and said okay...here is the blues but wow you know look and listen to that energy man you know, and they called it rock and roll you know. Here we go you know we got something we can bug down to. Well they don't know that behind the scene people been bug jump to that music already for the past forty or fifty years you know and ah finally it brought forth through another source by saying, hey here's a new kind of rock so when someone would come along and asked someone about it like you asked me ah you know they say well that energy ...Where did that energy come from? It seemed to have a sense of rock, you don't expect to find this in blues music because it was always described as being such a laid back source of music and ah they don't realize that people came out to have fun to forget about their troubles you know and just let all this stuff go, and they say wow, they dance and whoop and holler and dance you know they didn't do that to laid back stuff you know and this slow dragging around, the music had that. We played hard you know, there were a whole lot of Chuck Barry's around before you ever saw Chuck Barry you could have just opened the door of one of the little country juke joints and peeked in on one Saturday night you know you would have said hey...But it didn't happen you know so people didn't know till somebody came along and brought it forth like Chuck Barry said well okay you know this is rock and roll and where did you bring that rock and roll from, that country juke joint back there in the corn field right down there in Mississippi or Arkansas you know and he had to say we're going to visit one of those old country juke joints...oh no that ain't like that ,go back there and hear that old sad stuff,cause they didn't have the chance to go there and see it for their selves you know, until they saw Chuck Barry or who ever you know, doing all this energy up there now because its rock and roll, like I said where'd it come from you know. Now as far as the music changing you know, yeah it changes its just like an automobile going to get, you know, if you don't change it you know you can't sell the same model every year and keep calling it you. You go in and cut the same record over and over you can get away with it doing the same words year after year if you modernize a little bit you know put a little something else behind, you can do it the same way but you've got to make it interesting enough you know for people to say yeah I always did like that song, I know that so and so did it but I like that too, you know that sounds okay it got a little beat to it now, a little groove there, for some reason or another its got to change, but for me stay with in the circle though please I don't care how much energy, because with out energy, with out fire and energy, the energy level is what puts me through to you. If I can't get enough energy up here to get through to you, you know it's useless I'd just as soon forget about you. I can't reach you. So if it takes that hard driving energy to stir you maybe it don't take as much to stir him you know I can just lay back and maybe get him but I'd like to raise you up off your seat and say hey, that's the long way but one way or another I got to reach all of you, you know. So even if I take the same song and just you know redo it a touch and fire it up a little bit here you may not like it but you may be crazy about it you know, so you got to touch all bases, So you know like I say its got to be changed.

I Sure...
Seals but I try to stay, myself, within... I don't want to...someone say what are you doing, playing punk rock have you gone crazy? You know, I don't want to lose the identity you know. So you say you know Son Seal, you know Son Seal played blues, he's a blues man okay he got energy, you know so he can reach all. I has a guy come up to me you know and say man I don't think that I could enjoy this music like this you know man you and my old lady hit the floor, I couldn't stand it you know all this energy going... of course...he'd been used to rock and what not, maybe this is the first time he come to see a blues band you know. Well how come they got a dance floor you know and somebody had to drag him there and I'd have to drag him away...he don't want to leave, you know, you think that's funny? He didn't think that he could enjoy it because its blues but once the energy you know. That's the way I felt the first time I saw Chuck Barry.

S What surprised, me sort of was I was under the conception I guess that coming from Arkansas that there would be something in your music that would lead me to think of the country. But I didn't hear that last night. I didn't hind of what I expected certain country blues artist to have. I thought maybe it was something that you had that you put aside when you moved to Chicago, and kind of adapted an urban kind of style. That's not the way it happened?
Seals What you see us doing now was the same thing that I was doing ah say twenty years ago when maybe I had a different style. What I mean by that is I was being my self, you take an artist or musician what ever, if you never learn what he's about out here in his field he's just lost you know, you may play many different types of styles of music you know copying this person that person that artist you know so I like old songs and the sound but until you find what you are what you about you know once you discover what your about when I learned who Son Seals were you know musically and all the other stuff just would hold me up till I did, and what you saw me doing last night was being myself just like I was being myself twenty years ago. It may take...the music take different shape and forms in side of me sometimes you know it ...inside of me you know sometimes I feel laid back and get up there and really play the blues like I say I can really feel it good you know really laid back like I feel and I love that...if I ever lose that feeling I might as well get out of the ball game you know, and then I turn around and play like I say its not all laid back, crying in your beer music you know... we come out here to have fun, enjoy our self listening to the blues you know be it sad slow fast or what ever you know we try and make everybody feel good. I don't want you to come in with your handkerchief in your hand and leave with your handkerchief in your hand, I want you to leave and feel good you understand, when your friend take you home he say hey man I liked that music, we'll have to do it again sometime you know, not man that just hurt me too much, I can't handle that you know. So this is the idea you know and if you don't understand that, if people can't get that in here you know clue you enough to understand about the music, that it's not just only one thing that is you know, I can understand the guy that's come in there and my boss says well the guy is mad you know, then he wants to hear some blues so we reach over and touch him a little bit, now and touch that people too you know everybody wants to count everybody is in the same boat so that's why you seen it the way you did last night you know because I'm doing what ah I feel so I know what I'm about, what I feel you know in the music/

S you've mentioned that Albert King has early influence, who would you, say if anyone, that you admire today in the blues/popular music field?
Seals He's still around...that's my main man

S still your main man...
Seals you know I was talking to a friend of mine at home a few days ago because I'm supposed to go down there and play for the school reunion there you know. I asked him about Albert you know and he say, Albert had moved in that area and ah in fact he's supposed to be opening a place around there. I don't get a chance to see enough of him that's the reason why if I get a chance to ask somebody about him I find out where he's at and usually when he come around ah Chicago, he will come and play maybe two or three times a year and usually if I'm not out of town and I'm in town and it's the weekend and we're working I'll say well and I don't get a chance to see him play and that's bad you know. I did see him play maybe a year and a half ago I got a chance to catch the last set or something like this you know and him and I, we played at Littlerock about oh maybe three and a half maybe four years ago we had a show down there you know, but see anywhere you look around people like that you know learned under him so to speak you know, its hard to set him aside you know and say well you know I got to idolize him you know because you can't get that out of your system, that's the way it is, weather he's still around or not man you know he'll always be there even though I try to make myself stay away from ah his style if I'm on the bandstand ah I will play his style his music if I'm playing his tune up to a certain extent just so its identifiable at the same time do I want to get some Seals through there, like I say it doesn't matter who or what you do you know you get all the people you know that you want to play, like this person but in the end if you can not identify the Son Seals when they walk away from you know well then you got a problem.

S I also noticed ah I was noticing ah well I guess its not an inconsistence because we do see a number of blues artists using a hollowed body guitar, but I was kind of surprised in your guitar. How long have you had that and how do you prefer a hollowed body guitar rather than, to a solid body.

S well first the sound is a lot different than the hollowed bodied and solid ah a solid guitar you know as far as ah notes seems to substantiate themselves a lot farther and longer for one thing the quality of the tone you know, its...wood solid all the way through seems to do something to that as compared to a hollow body and ah hollow body I guess were more or less what they were made for and its more like an old type and stuff you know I have tried them I've had only one that I kind of liked and that's the one that I did my first LP with the Son Seals blues band LP and someone stole the guitar you know ah an behind that I pocked up a Gibson and went back to you know the hollowed bodied and ah but I would prefer to... I would like to still have my guitar that guitar was a fine made guitar and you'll never find one like it and have some guy you would believe fame up and pawned the guitar at one of the clubs we were playing at for twenty bucks and never did come back and get it and it was called a Norman so it was made over in Europe or Japan or something like that but that was the darnedest solid body that I ever put my hands on and after that I just went on back to the hollowed body and I've been there. This particular guitar that's...

S that's Gild...
Seals yeah... I had one guy say to me last night, man you sure can get some sound out of that Gibson...I held back and said that's a Gil in fact they don't even make this particular guitar anymore.

S I was going to say I've never seen anyone have any quite like it myself.
Seals No... they...well its been maybe eight or ten years since they made one like this one. So you know, its just me...the guitar, the Gibson that I had, it got stolen you know, I went to Bruce from the Alligator who put me in touch with a friend that sold guitars and amplifiers and things you know, out of his home he'd get them and repair them and stuff you know and this guitar was about two years old when I picked up on it, and ah he had it in his house to sell believe it or not for a priest at the U. N. Church you know and so I said young man if he been using this guitar in church for the last two years you know, I don't know how it sounds but it sure ought to have a lot of spirit. So you know true enough I said well hey man this is it you know, as side from the Gibson, you know I said this is it and I told you I did have one like it, except it's a different color Sammy Longhorn he used to be Muddy Waters old guitar player he used to do all the recordings with Muddy years and years ago on the old Chess label and everything you know now that's one reason why I tried the guitar out because ah when he said it's a Gild you know I said well you know yeah is was made like that because I'd been playing on Sammy's because usually when I down to Reese's, that was the place that goes way back in Chicago to Reese's lounge man it was there Junior Wells every body that you can name, everybody been to that place. You go by now and the building is vacant man but you can still go buy it man just get on that street and near that corner, and so I used to go down there and ah Sammy would always call me up to play and I'd play on his you know cause I'd never take my guitar and so that guitar for that reason I wasn't scared to try it man that guitar you know I wouldn't take I don't know a million dollars for it man I had that guitar stolen from me once and got it back as you can see...

S How many records have you made.
Seals with Alligator?

S Yes with Alligator...
Seals ah five...

S was one of then that Midnight Sun...
Seals Midnight Sun, yes...

S I read somewhere that a...well which one would you consider of the five that you...I saw, I think I saw all five of them last night up on the band stand, which one would you consider your strongest effort.
Seals You know I've been asked that question before you know and I have to say again you know at the time each one of them. You no at the time you put your best in every one of them you know even though sometime your best may not be good enough, if you do the best you can you know my dad used to say that's all that you can do, you know you look up to this building and look at it all day saying you can't move it, you can't move it but you do the best you can, and kind of the same way that I feel about those records you know, I put a lot of hard work into each one of them you know at the time even thought this last record was a good record you know and I figure its probably best thing I ever did, but, the Weekend of one do lie would probably say the same thing a year from now you know so at the time you know any artist would probably feel that way you know you really would to do you best if you mean what your doing you know at the time you know its kind of like any other product you know just press it and get better you know if you do something over and over again you either get better or you get worst.

S I get the impression that well from you talking about how you evolved from a youngster into a drummer into a guitarist knowing all these famed musicians in Arkansas eventually evolving into Chicago that ah in one sense it seems like you've kind of ah there's almost a sense of easiness in where you started from to where you've gotten today, and ah would you say that that's an accurate Assessment or has there been any down times for you in your career that you just wanted to give up things and quit?
Seals Believe me now it's a hell of a lot easier, yeah you know this music man...this field like anything else man is very, very discouraging you know it can really...you can see it all before you, and you say man there ain't no way you know I can get over this or around it can't get under it, what ever you know, it can really be hell, you can just say well take this guitar or what ever drums and what ever and just duck if its in here, if its in there that's when you'll find out if its in there you know that's the only thing that can make you say hey, one more time. Night after night one more time you know and the other thing is it's year after year. Some guys go for a life time you know and it'll never happens it never come together but they keep on saying well got to try it again you know because its in here and soon you come to realize that it all can be up here but some guys don't know just how much you know if he's really involved from his heart you just don't know how much he'd be really be doing and some of them do you know they have to be told you know ...saying why in the hell I keep doing this over and over every and over year after year day in and day out you know and there ain't nothing happening you know but whether you don't realize, every time you step on that bandstand that's what happens you know right there, everything I guess just seems to go with no mind you know this is where_________ and you know a lot of them get in this field and they make it, they make all kind of success coming to them from all directions and they do what they want to do and get out of it and go on to doing something else and don't give a thought or care about it and some of them don't you know and they get in and make a bunch of money in what ever they're doing and they get into something else, oh I think I'll...now get me a oil well over here you know and get the office and you know whenever you think about it where it comes from you know whether you really love what he's doing. So that's when you find out you know when you see all these stumbling blocks you know and you can't see how you can get over them but for some reason you can't just throw this down and walk away from it. Then you know that's it _______ sometimes you be so and upset you don't realize what it is you know, but ah I know...it come to me because I've been very upset at times you know, it gets very damn discouraging especially when you answer to a lot of people you know ah so called tricky dicks in this business, it's a lot of people man.

S tell us about some of those.
Seals well it started all the way from agencies to bad recording companies ah club owners, you got people that you go and work for that say hey yeah I'm going to give you a million dollars you know and you get through they say well I'm going to have to owe you nine-hundred and ninety- nine and some change and all this stuff you know, ah just didn't make it, some of the people you run into you know, you'd be surprised man at the...you wouldn't think you know say hey, man you know you owe me so and so and this and that and what about this deal and that deal? We worked here the night we were supposed to get the door and what happened? The house was full, this and that you know, you got all kinds you know and problems you can run in to. Its not as smooth as someone on the outside looking in, some people may think it is man you know there's all kinds of tricky dicks like I say in this business all the way. You start from the agent all the way through to recording companies to club owners managers ah whatever you know, anybody that handles some money.

S you've been with Alligator now lets see you said since 73, they seen to treat you well.
Seals Alligator you know ah Bruce of ah...him and I have always did things together ah you know currently of Alligator. The company's from home back there, it did real well and even now if him and I do something or other together its more or less the same way, you know I can pretty much put faith in what he tell me he say he going to do it and I think he'd say the same thing about me if I tell him I'll do this I'll do that you know, that's the way it is, you know we never had not even a contract it's a hand shake deal and we trusted one another you know, a lot of people don't know that cause he don't care about people and I don't either cause...I don't know, Bruce came to me you know and talked to me about recording ah he only recorded ah two artists at that time and that was Kerry Bell and Walt Harden they had did an album together and he had recorded Hound Dog Till and ah Hound dog ah I happened to be playing at the time was when he came to me and talked to me about the possibility of recording for him, and like I say I was just kind of cold so to speak because a friend of Bruce happened to be at the club because he'd always come to see Hound Dog, you know and ah the guitar player that Hound Dog had he'd found him and ah Hound Dog I had met back in the sixties you know and got acquainted with him through my brother-in ­law, so being in the club of this particular night I was playing with Hound Dog this guy saw me playing and he was so taken and fired up over it he called Bruce and let him listen to me over the telephone man you know, Bruce liked what he heard so he I don't know a couple of weeks later he came down himself, sat around a couple of sets I guess you know, and finally come up and say man I'm the guy that's handling Hound Dog you know and ah I like you this and that blab, blab how would you like to do a record and all this stuff you know. Well I heard of Bruce ______ through Hound Dog but you know at that time you know like I say Bruce...was just Bruce and ah he was trying to get started like I say he had only did two artists. So you know him and I you know after we got into the progress of trying to do the record, once we got into that we got to know one another, we spent a lot of time together. He'd come to my house for rehearsals you know we would eat and drink and talk and talk and talk you know, just got to know one another you know and I guess got to trust one another so to speak and ah there wasn't any point at that time of putting me on a contract, ah there wasn't any point in me insisting that he did, because if he didn't do something right he didn't have anything on paper at that time and so forth no way so, you know we just kind of started off together you know at will and ah it just went on that way, on and on you know and ah after Hound Dog died and finally Kerry Bell, Kerry bell is still around and ah that'd make me the oldest artist on that label because bye Hound Dog . So we just never did do anything but just handshake and say we're going to do a deal.

S Wow your right that sounds like a kind of again a charmed and musical existence you've had. I keep reading all these things about horror stories that people run into with record labels and the middle man...Is there ...and you talked about Albert King, I'm kind 9of curious about the Chicago scene a little bit, is there...ah ...who's your favorite contemporary in town, in Chicago?
Seals Okay one of the guys that I like to go and hear if I can I enjoy him coming around you may be familiar with him I don't know, Magic Slim.

S Pardon me...
Seals Magic Slim...Slim goes back a ways too. I met Slim back when I first went to Chicago, and being around him every Sunday they used to have a jam session on Sunday afternoon we played __________. All the musicians would come you know and ah Slim used to like me play drums behind him you know and I got a kick out of that man.

I He's in Chicago?

S Magic Slim? Yeah he gets around you know but its funny like your self there's a lot of other people that don't know him and not too familiar with him like they should be.

I I'm familiar with him___________ isn't he?

S yeah...you know he don't get around like he should I think to certain areas like I said the reason for it cause of ah miss management by the people that were managing him and then I remember that one of the people that were managing there ah cut out and moved to California on him at one point he was kind of lost so to speak, and had to go take it over himself because this other person wasn't smart enough to be and they started not to be in the management business once they moved to California so he didn't have anybody to pick up the pieces and had to go and do it for himself for a while and ah I don't know...now I think he got someone else but I did remember the last time that he and I talked he said that he was doing quite a bit of the bookings himself and managing and what not so I know what that means, that if he's booking himself he got to be managing himself doing the whole thing and what not. He did an album too, out in Nebraska I think the Zoo Bar, the same place that we played at ah the guy that run the place, Larry, Bingba he's also a bass player, he was crazy about Slim, you know so he's been quite a bit of help to Slim as far as ah managing and what not and helping him to get it back together so to speak, more so than anybody since that other person cut out on him you know. He's a guy that should be doing a lot more getting around a lot more and ah but you know ah even ____________________getting the kind of push out there that they should be getting you know and ah he's, Larry naturally you know came to compete with ah Alligator so to speak so he hasn't got that kind or scar now poor _______so then that leaves people like Slim will only be able to do just so, so you know, but the guy's really great.

S well...send him to Ann Arbor '
Seals yeah...I don't know if ah...I'm sure that Rick you know they should know some of that because as much as he's coming to Chicago I'm saying if nothing else he should have ran into him there you know, so people here would love it man cause the cat puts on a good show and he's a hell of a player.

S yeah...over the last I would say well since I've been here the last six five or six years we've had ah just about all the major artists from Chicago, Buddy Guy and Junior Wells have all been here and ah quite some time ago before my time of course Muddy's of course has been here and so Ann Arbor and Detroit is pretty interested in the Blues. In ah...maybe in some year if you were going to give some advice I prob... this is a standard question that you probably that you probably get a thousand times, if you were going to give advice to a struggling young guitarist about life and business in general, how would you direct them about getting in to the business and ah and in regards to their music?
Seals Well you know the first thing I guess I'd say would be, try to be 99% sure this is what he want to do, you know because you know it's not as easy as one may imagine or think it is you know you ... it's not as easy as turning on T. V. and boom there I am just like they are on M. T. V. you know it don't happen that way and then it could happen that way you know you'd be surprised how you know I'm sure you already know I don't even have to say it, your not surprised boom guys crack it and they hit it over night you know ah but on the other hand you may go into it so far till you know you want to turn around but the only thing then like I said at that point that make you turn around is that you have a real love for what you're doing and then, but that don't necessary mean that your going to make it because you have that love for it you know and so you know you should try and find out, talk to people along the way and find out...you get close to people man that ah have had hell and can tell you what it's about in this business you know or something you know because you can't know if you don't experience it, but once you go all the way unless you have someone real strong to fall back on you know you get out there and you don't have anything to fall back on when your by yourself and your going to catch a lot of hell like I say if you love it its good you know its worth fighting for you know but ah you know if you don't ... there's no way to know I mean there's no way to know what the hell on this business if you trying to make something out of it you know at least I know like myself you know I have a...would like to be as well off as anybody else I guess but at the same time ah I've always said well hey you know all I want is to be able to survive to make a living for me and my family I'm more concerned for my family than I am about me so to speak I won't ah if I can make a living out of what I love to do then that's cool...I won't have to have the big billing down town or what ever you know and Son Seal across it you know cause __________.As long as I can make a comfortable living you know and but some people want a hell of a lot more, I realize that it's not enough you know but how ever you know like I say if you...anybody was going to tackle this business man you know can only just tackle it and know all the things and the stumbling blocks that could get you cause its going to happen or it may not happen may just...some people...over night you know boom you know and there you go you never have no problems you know but then you know you got maybe two out of twenty maybe that'll happen to I'd say in this business so think about those odds you know that's the way it goes, you know it don't just happen to everybody... it's a hell of a business man.

S you make it seen on one hand like a you know like a quest and a dream and a lot of rewards on the other hand you make sure that everybody's a little bit leery of it.

S Well its not so much as ah that it may be chalked up as far as what meet the eye to everybody you know what everybody you know just because you see ah three or four limousines pull up in ah the band get out of this one and the manager get out of the next one and the star get out of the last one you know it don't necessarily mean that they had a easy time getting to that point you know and it don't necessarily mean that because that's what you want to do that you can make it to that point you know so you've got to be prepared for that and this be why you got to have an open mind so to speak as far as ah being really to except what ever level that you be able to part especially like I take it the way I look at it I say I want to be able to be comfortable you know and I think to some, they may say your asking mighty little you know for what you put out you know or something you know ah boy if I put out as much as you did man and as many nights I spent out on the road and this and that and what not you know I'd want every damn thing I can get you know and all his crew too but you know what I'm saying is I'm not going to let anybody run me crazy if I don't ... if I could ah...what would run me crazy is every time I turned around someone is knocking on the door or the phone ring hey when you going to bring that rent money over here, when you going to pay that grocery bill ah as long as I can do all of that you know keep everybody off my back you know keep some of my own you know and keep everything well and fed and have a little bit here and a little bit there and a little bit laid back you know just incase I break a leg or something and I can't play you know but then I'm happy you know if the rest of it comes along...so that's the kind of mind that I think that it's health for you because you get out here and say oh man you know I jump up and down and hoop and holler and raise hell you know 364 days a year and I ...this is all I got to show for it you know one day off you know, you'll probably be ready for that cause it could happen and you could not even have that you know so you know that's what I'm trying to say I'm not trying to make it sound like it can be a nightmare but I ...you know like I say on one hand it can be roses but on the other hand you know if it don't happen that way be ready not to go crazy.

S just a couple of more questions... first an immediate question...where are you going next?
Seals Well we just completed an east coast tour you know so this was the last of what I considered to be it so to speak now we're playing in Chicago next and of course the following week we will be still playing Illinois Rock Island most of the month...most of the month and then ah lets see May is when we're supposed to go west we got a west coast tour.

S in the Bay area?
Seals oh yeah...we're going to go all the way up to ah Seattle and then go into Canada ah I don't know how far we're going to go but I know that we will be ah its just ...they have expose...

S Vancouver?
Seals yeah we're going to Vancouver yeah...Expo something they call it now ah Guy Gordon is setting that up...he was telling me about it anyway, we're going to Vancouver and then we're going back down to San Francisco and back down to Phoenix, Utah, Salt Lake back to Colorado...

S so you'll be busy...
Seals yes for quite a while.

S well I want to thank you for a graciously extending you time to us this is going to be a valuable addition to our collection. Again I'd like to extend the invitation to stop by the Collection believe it or not its only two blocks from Rick's from the Collection so I planned on stopping in tonight and ah maybe I can get there early enough I can a...you might have a chance to come down and see what we have, but if not this time we'll try to make some sort of arrangement next time your in town.
Seals I may be back out here in September you know if it don't work just have me the next time you get a chance to cause I'd like to take a look you know and see what's going on a while. I'd like to be able to spend some time there you know I'd like to get over with you a while where I can maybe look at one of your tapes or something you know.

S there's some classics there...we do have Blind John Davis
Seals you do...well that's a hell of an old guy

S oh yeah Cape Mouth Brown we did him in late 84...like I say John Hooker just 3 or 4 months ago ah I cant remember the other one that just slipped in and out of my mind, but it's a decent collection
Seals that's good

S we try to keep them at this kind of level try to get underneath what the business is about as well as their relationship to the music that kind of stuff.
Seals yeah...well there's no point in jiving about it now it can be like I say man the business can be beautiful to you and then you know it makes you appreciate it though ah if you do have a few ups and downs and if things go kind of rolling smooth cause I think its better to have did it and not have did it then at least you know how important it is and to you know to appreciate what ever the hell you do accomplish out of it you know and ah to be able to do some of the things you wanted to do if not all you know like I say I like to keep the bills paid and ah keep everybody happy you know like my family and shit you know and as long as I do that I'm happy you know, then to have to worry about if this ain't paid and that ain't paid you know and that's cool with me. If I feel like going somewhere and buy me a pair of shoes I can do it so that's all that matters you know, I'd like to buy a Cadillac but it's a pair of shoes and I'll walk where ever I want to go.

END OF INTERVIEW