Henry "Buster" Smith

S = Standifer
HB = Smith

S 223 Garden Drive, at the home of Mr. Henry "Buster" Smith. Is that right, Mr. Smith? Henry "Buster" Smith, and we're in Dallas, Texas southwest out of Dallas, right off the Central Expressway, talking to Mr. Smith in his living room. Mr. Smith, what is this name "Buster"? Did your parents give you that name or
HB Yes.

S Is there any reason for it? Is there any story behind it?
HB No. It was given me when I was born. They said I was a kind of fat baby. And ___ named me. He said he's nothing but a big old buster. So that's where the "Buster" arrived.

S How many children were there in your family?
HB 5.

S What number in the 5 are you?
HB I was the oldest one.

S And how many girls and boys?
HB All 5 were boys. No girls.

S 5 boys and no girls.
HB Yes.

S I see, and you're the older?
HB Yes.

S Are you the only one who went into music?
HB No, I have little brother who is the second older to me named Busta Smith. He's a piano player.

S How do you spell his first name?
HB Busta.

<Rolling 2>

S Okay. We're at the home of Mr. Buster Smith in Dallas, Texas on February 23rd interviewing Mr. Buster Smith. We're in his living room at the address of 223 Garden Drive, in Southwest Dallas. Good evening, Mr. Smith. Now, your name is really Henry "Buster" Smith, right?
HB Yes.

S And where does the name "Buster" come from?
HB They tell me when I was born I was kind of fat baby, and my aunt said, "he isn't anything but a big fat "buster" that's all he is. And that's where they named me "Buster".

S It seems quite appropriate. How many children were there in your family?
HB 5 children.

S And you're the?
HB I'm the oldest.

S I see. Are they all boys, or were there girls also?
HB They're all boys.

S Are these boys living now?
HB I've got two beside me living. My bigger brother he passed and the one next to him he passed.

S Oh, I see.
HB It started with the measles but none of them ___ ____ for myself and Boston.

S Boston? Where does live?
HB He lives down in back of Lincoln School.

S Back of Lincoln School here in Dallas? Lincoln School. Yeah, there are two schools there-Magnet School and New Madison. Tell me what instrument does Boston play?
HB He plays piano.

S Did you ever play together?
HB Oh, yes, we play together all the time.

S I see. What kind of music, blues? Jazz?
HB Well, he's mostly boogey woogey.

S Mostly boogey woogey? I see. When did you first become interested in music?
HB I was in the cotton patch. In a little town across _____, Texas. And I always could play a little on a little organ when I was a little bitty boy, and Little ____ and me he used to have a little organ around in the _____.

S In your home? Or in his church?
HB Yeah. At home. So my grandfather he ___ ___ and he said, "Boy, ___ ____ he ain't done nothing but sent himself to the devil." So my mother just got rid of the organ, so the next instrument I picked up, I had to pick cotton hard to get this instrument ___ ___ but it was an old clarinet.

S What year was that Mr. Smith?
HB 1919.

S 1919? When were you born?
HB I was born in 1904.

S 1904. Now if you're the older, how much younger is your brother than you? What age is he? Boston?
HB Boston is about 78, about 75.

S So put you two together that's a lot of years in music experience, isn't it?
HB I have one next to me, John, he's a barber. And he's doesn't go in the street _____. He's 77.

S Now, what instruments did you have in your home in those early days in 1919?
HB Nothing but a ragged guitar.

S An old ragged guitar?
HB Yes. My daddy used to_____ out in the kitchen.

S And you started playing on the guitar?
HB Yes.

S And did you sing along as you played?
HB No, no. I never ___ ___.

S You had a good ear, obviously. Did you ever try to make up tunes?
HB Oh, yeah. I guess 100 tunes. I got a whole ___ ___ 3 episodes like that and I saying ___ __ was this tune that I made up. Got out on the market ___ ___ the wrong man.

S Well, as a little boy in the 1920s for example, as a young did you play with a group? Or?
HB Yes. We moved from the country to Carlin County, this little town

S Carlin County?
HB Yeah, in Carlin County there was a little town called Salina, Texas, and we moved here in Dallas in 1921 or 1922. And we made up a little group, a piano player and a drummer and myself. We used to play at the chop houses.

S What did you call yourself?
HB That was just three that got together.

S Just 3 musicians, huh?
HB Yeah, 3 musicians playing these chop houses all night.

S Now, I heard Robert Fudge Shaw played in chock houses. What is a chock house?
HB Kind of like a ___ ___, you know, just a good time house, a shotgun house, and there was a woman running the house and she's back there selling ___ ___ ____. There was something going on already, and she didn't have anything but chocolate and they'd set it on the piano and everybody drinking could have a dip of _____, man. You could get all you wanted. It was free.

S I see. Now, what is chock?
HB It's made out of potatoes or something. It was almost like beer, but a little stronger than beer.

S So, it was really some kind of alcoholic beverage?
HB Oh, yes, yes.

S It was like an ale house or a beer house or something like that, huh?
HB Yes.

S Well some people think a chock house was a house where they had ladies of the evening, or a prostitute. That's not a chock house, is it?
HB No, no. Not exactly.

S In those days, huh?
HB If you live by liquor, ___ ____ then, and ___ ___ these all night.

S I see. And, so, that was your first real job with 3 fellow-2 other guys. And what instrument were you playing at that time?
HB Clarinet.

S So you didn't start out with the saxophone?
HB No.

S Your first reed instrument then was a clarinet.
HB Yeah.

S Was it a bass clarinet? Or just a....
HB No, it was just an old E (one and the ___ is A).

S Where did you get that instrument?
HB I bought it up there in that little town Salinas.

S Did you go and choose it yourself, or did you get your father to buy it?
HB No. I chose it myself. I saw a man had it in a window passed a little old pawn shop, and he wanted $3.50 for it, so I wanted it and my mother said, "Well if you pick plenty cotton this week, I'll let you buy that old clarinet." So,

S So you picked a lot of cotton and bought it, huh?
HB Yeah, a lot of cotton. She needed $2.50 and I went down and bought it.

S Was that a bargain in those days?
HB No, no.

S Or was that pretty expensive?
HB Well, it wasn't really exactly, the man just wanted to get rid of it, you know. It was pretty good.

S Fair. Did you have a teacher to help you learn an instrument? Or did you just take it home and learn it yourself?
HB I learned it myself. All by myself.

S Can you remember what was the first tune that you played on that instrument that you really liked? That you really could play as a whole tune?
HB No, I'll tell you, back in them days they had mostly going around this part of the country was the blues, especially around the pig-in joints and chock houses is all they wanted. Blues. They'd play in one key, this meant ____ go another key, then they would start it again and go to another key, the same blues, the same bass, same change.

S I see. There's one word you keep saying and I'm not sure I understanding it. Is it pig house?
HB Pig-in.

S Pig-in. Oh, pig feet. I get it. Now, that makes more sense.
HB Yeah, they used to have them in New York.

S Yes. All over. Were there any other instruments you were playing while you were playing while you were playing, besides the guitar and the clarinet in those days? How old were you in those days, incidentally?
HB About 19.

S About 19, so you knew the guitar and you had learned the clarinet.
HB Yeah. I didn't have a guitar then. I couldn't get one, they were a little too high.

S You didn't have anyone to help you, show you some fingering on that clarinet or something, though?
HB No.

S No one helped you start. You just picked it up. Were you listening to recordings or radio?
HB Yes, recordings.

S Who was your favorite player then? And at 18, now, who was around playing?
HB Sidney B'Shea.

S Sidney B'Shea?
HB You ever heard of him?

S Yes, indeed. And he was one of your favorites?
HB Yes. He played soprano sax.

S Right.
HB ___ ___ ____ in the same pitch, only it's the sax. <airplane traveling just above these two> very noisy. ___ ____ low in soprano.

S And you heard him performing and you tried to imitate him, maybe some of the songs? What were some of the songs that Sidney B'Shea performed that you seemed to like most.
HB But I think it was "Kansas City".

S You like that?
HB Yeah.

S Where did you go to hear these? Did you get any of that on your mother's radio? Record player?
HB Record player.

S And she bought those records for you to listen to?
HB Yes.

S What about your father? I haven't heard you say very much about your father.
HB No, they separated. My mother was ____ woman there for 4 or 5 years, and she married my stepfather. They were separated in 1917.

S Are you carrying your father's name, Smith? Or your stepfather's name.
HB Yes, my father's name.

S What was your stepfather's last name?
HB His first name was ____ Smith.

S Bill?
HB Beb.

S How do you spell that?
HB B-E-B.

S Beb Smith?
HB Yeah.

S That's your father's name or your stepfather's name?
HB My father's name.

S Okay, your father is Beb, so what's your mother's name?
HB Her name was Arlene.

S Arlene Smith. What was her maiden name before she became a Smith?
HB Johnson.

S Oh, my mother is Johnson, too. Arlene Johnson and when she married Beb Smith she became Arlene Johnson Smith. What was your stepfather's name?
HB His name was Chap Evans.

S Evans? Oh, Chap Evans. And did those two stay together, your mother and your stepfather until each of them died?
HB No, they separated in the 20s, around 1924 they separated.

S I see. So, at least you were pretty much of a young man on your own by that time. You didn't suffer from that as much as you could have. When did you start meeting some of the people that we know like Lester Young, for example, or Billie Mountain. Was that many, many years later?
HB Yeah. It was around 1929.

S Oh, 1929? And, what other jobs did you have between the time you were playing in those chock houses and the time you began to play with ...
HB Well, when our family round up, get down on what we call the main drag, we used to call ___ ____ track. That's that same express we had ___ ____ ran up the ____.

S Right here in Dallas?
HB Yeah. Right here in Dallas. We were at downtown there and we got there-that's where all the colored people would be on Fridays, Saturdays and Sundays. They'd gather up there and they had all the pit shows and carnivals playing out there in the daytime, so I went down there and got to hanging around down there and there was a band playing upstairs they called "Satisfied Pride". There were 3 up there who played a whole lot. I used to listen to them playing and blowing his horn out of the window. His name was Jesse Hooper. Jesse Hooper.

S Did he go on to become...
HB Yeah. He went to New York, but he didn't stay long.

S Well who did he play with when he was in New York?
HB I don't know who he played with.

S Do you ever read about Jesse Hooker in some of these books now?
HB No. He died quite a few years ago. He died in the 40s. He went to New York but he didn't stay long. He didn't like it there.

S Okay, now before the 40s there was a lot of big jumps from say 1924 to 1940s. What happened to you as a musician between that time?
HB I was in the Blue Devils then.

S The Blue Devils. Now, was that your band, or whose?
HB That band - Count Basie, where he organized his band it was two bands together-Blue Devils and Billie Moton.

S Billie Moton and the Blue Devils band.
HB Yes. Both bands broke up.

S Why did he need the two bands?
HB Well, he would pick the best men he liked which was me and Ross, a boy named Ross he lives in Arkansas somewhere now. There were 7 of us-Hot Lip Page...

S Yeah, Hot Lip Paige was in the Blue Devils, too.
HB Yeah, and Jimmie Rushin, Walter Paige, you knew him, when it would be time to ___ ___ Walter Paige got to be leading that trombone. That trombone leader he quit.

S Is Ross Paige still living? Or do you know?
HB Oh, no. He's dead.

S I see. Did he live here in the Dallas area?
HB No, he lives in Kansas City. He stayed in Oklahoma City, that's where the Blue Devils' headquarters was in Oklahoma City.

S But you didn't stay in Oklahoma City, did you?
HB Yeah. I stayed in Oklahoma City.

S Because everything I read about you seemed to be Dallas based. You're not much of a traveler evidently.
HB Oh, man I'm ____ ____.

S Yeah?
HB Yeah, for years.

S But you all were headquartered in Oklahoma City.
HB Oklahoma City with the Blue Devils. Then we ventured out, then __ ___ ___ started hanging around Kansas City.

S I see. Which one of those bands did Count Basie travel with? Did he try to travel with both of them?
HB No. He traveled with the Blue Devils first in 1928. Then, Benny Moton stole him from us, right here in Dallas.

S Stole Count Basie?
HB Yes, stole Count Basie.

S Oh, Count Basie wasn't the original director or conductor, the leader?
HB No, no, no. Buss Moton was leader.

S Buss Moton?
HB Yeah, in Benny Motons band.

S I see. Was Buss Moton and Benny Moton related?
HB Yeah, yeah. They were brothers, but that band was busted up.

S Oh, I see. And so, Count Basie really wasn't the leader of his band at the beginning.
HB No, he made that band up down the Rainbow Club.

S What did he play when he was with the Blue Devils? Piano?
HB Piano. Yeah, that's the only thing he played.

S And he always arranged, too, didn't he?
HB Oh, no. ___ ___ in doing that.

S You and Eddie did the arranging for the Blue Devils.
HB Yeah. I did all the arranging for the Blue Devils.

S Eddie Duhran. How do you spell Durham?
HB Yeah.

S Eddie Durham.
HB Yeah, ___ ____.

S And he arranged for both the Blue Devils.
HB No. He did most of the arranging in the ______ ___. You see, he didn't stay. He really wasn't with the Blue Devils, but we was good friends and he hung around me all the time and I hung around him.

S Well, since you said you did all the arranging, did you ever have any formal music education?
HB No.

S How did you learn to arrange?
HB Some of the fellows that were around taught me note for note and the value of a note and what made each little confluence. A boy named Johnny Clark, he's in _______, Arizona. He played banjo, and he and I was staying together down there at the Tip Top. The old Tip Top Club. A guy had left the 3 pieces. That band broke up, and so ours was a better group.

S Where was this Tip Top Club? Here in Dallas?
HB Yeah. Right down in on the other side of the track. ___ ____ sense of track(?).

S And he's the one that gave you some pointers on how to arrange?
HB Yeah, and I was using some pointers by the music.

S Oh, I see.
HB Yeah. How to read music and what was the value of each notes and what notes stood for and whatnot. So I went and ___ ___ looking at orchestrations. You know what orchestration is? Don't you?

S Right.
HB Yeah. That's the music that you probably will be used to.

S Right. So, you'd buy some of those and...
HB Yeah, I'd get some of those ___ ___ and I'd see how they ___ ___, so I just would ___ ___, and the first ____ was the saxophone, because I played sax and I knew about the sax. And for the trumpet, do like the tenor and the trombone was just like the alto sax. All of them were in the same key.

S So you began, let me just get this straight. You got some pointers from Eddie Durham,
HB No.

S Eddie Durham was the arranger along with you.
HB Oh, no, Eddie ____ leader.

S Oh, I see. When you first started writing music, you had some poetry from some fellows in the bank who work with you.
HB Yeah. ___ ____ ____ this year join the club.

S Okay. And then after they taught you the value of a note and something about keys and how one instrument maybe sounds like another and you'd write for one and you'd write for the other. Then you went and purchased some scores from the stores?
HB Right.

S Maybe some scores that had already been orchestrated line by line.
HB That's right.

S And you looked at how they orchestrated maybe the saxophones-all the reed instruments, and all the brass instruments, and
HB That's right.

S then you said, "well, heck, I can do that." And then you began to arrange for your own band, huh?
HB Then we started writing to _____.

S I see. Did they pay you extra for writing for the Blue Devils?
HB No, no. He didn't pay. He knew a good deed and he'd say, "Buster is ____ writing and write some more gang." That's all there was to it. _____ ______ _____cannot understand here

S The valet?
HB Yeah, valet. __ ___ ___ ___ cannot understand

S Now, he's the valet. Is that the man who dresses the band or something?
HB He's the one who keeps up with the instruments, you know.

S What were you paid? Were paid by the week or by the month?
HB No, we had a combo(?) band. The only time we got a job where we would paid by the week we got it with White jobs in one of those big clubs. Most of these we played one-nighters, every man was the same. We had one man that would go around and get the job but at the same time if he made $100 and there were 13 men, he split it up 13 ways.

S Explain the term you used in the Commonwealth band. What do you mean by that?
HB Lolita. Everybody the same.

S Oh, I see, so no one got paid any more than the other?
HB No.

S And what about these one-night stands, you usually were paid - you'd work tonight and you'd get paid tonight, unless you were doing one of those big prestigious clubs, huh?
HB Yeah, yeah. A lot of times you give your own base, and you have somebody __ ___ to take up the money and the tickets.

S I see.
HB Yeah. That's the one-nighter _____. And then the show time, we had a couple of white booking agents. He goes around and get jobs for us. We got some pretty good jobs out of that.

S What, did they take a portion of your salary then like 10% or 15%? Your booking agents?
HB No, not exactly. It was nothing like that. All he would do is you just gives him some money and go along to get you a job.

S To get you a job, huh? During those early days in Dallas, did the Bennie Moton Band or the Blue Devils that you were with, did they ever come to Dallas to play?
HB Yeah.

S When you were there, do you remember Andy Kirk playing in this area?
HB Yeah.

S And do you remember a young girl that was playing with him? If so, do you remember her name?
HB Young girl? Mary Lou?

S Yes. Mary Lou Williams.
HB Mary Lou has come around me to get parts of arrangements.

S She did?
HB Yeah.

S Well, you know, she arranged for everybody.
HB Yeah, well she was good.

S Do you remember the first time you heard her?
HB Back in Oklahoma City?

S You heard her in Oklahoma City first?
HB Yeah.

S About how old was she when you heard her?
HB I don't know. She was very young. She was married.

S Now, let me think real hard, now, when you first saw this woman up there playing the piano-now, there weren't a lot of women piano players with the bands in those days. And Andy Kirk did something very historically and introduced her. What were your first thoughts? Think back if you can. What were some of the first thoughts that went through your head when you saw Mary Lou playing up there on the stage?
HB Well, now, ___ ___ _____, usually you don't see no women back in those days playing in a band, and I think he was about the only one that came down and __ ___ we don't want a woman playing ____. We thought it was a great thing.

S So you didn't think it was anything immoral about a woman up there with all those men?
HB No. Now, her husband was playing, I think, first alto.

S What was her husband's name?
HB John Williams.

S John Williams, right. Now he's dead now, isn't he?
HB Is he? I didn't know that. I hadn't heard from him in years. The last I heard he was in Chicago.

S Yeah. Well, you know, she died a couple of years ago, too.
HB Yeah?

S I talked with her just before she died.
HB A friend of mine was ___ ____ ___. He stayed in New York there for years. I guess around 40 or some odd years or 50 years. He lived right across the highway there.

S Oh, really? And he played in that band with Andy Kirk?
HB Oh, no. He lived here in 1926. ___ ___ ___,

S Who? This fellow across the street you're talking about?
HB Yeah. A great drummer.

S I see. Let's get back to you again. What was some of the first tunes you heard Andy Kirk and Mary Lou Williams performing?
HB ____ ____.

S Can you think of any one particular famous one that you heard the Andy Kirk band do?
HB No. There were so many of them.

S When Mary Lou Williams would come to you for port____, what kind of questions would she ask you?
HB She asked me about how to raise the different ___ ___.

S Would she ever play a pattern on the piano then ask how you would ____ ___?
HB No. We would just sit around and talk to me and I'd say "well, how did the voice, you know spread the trumpets out and the saxes and things like that.

S Did you arrange at the piano or away from the piano?
HB Always at the piano.

S And, if I happened to hear something that's arranged by Buster Smith, what are some of the things I should look for in hearing? You just said the reeds spread out?
HB Yes.

S What other kind of ____
HB Brass.

S The Brass spread out. What other kinds of things should I expect that's your technique.
HB You'll hear a baritone on the bottom.

S Always hear the baritone on the bottom.
HB And the bottom is spread out.

S The baritones? Well you have them divisi broken up.
HB Oh, yes. The whole ___ ___.

S Broken up.
HB Yes.

S 4 or 5 reeds and the baritone on the bottom.
HB Always on the bottom. It has a good voice. That way the baritone makes the band sounds big.

S Now, when you say "good voice", then that can mean anything. What do you mean by good voice?
HB It mean pretty chords, changes, moving, moving notes.

S Okay, when you have a movement do you have a movement mostly in contrary motion, or mixing, or what?
HB Mixing.

S What about the other instruments besides your brass and the reeds?
HB Oh, you didn't worry about them, because the piano players they had in them days, they didn't read music, they went by ear. The only main thing was in trumpets, trombone, and the saxophones. That was the main thing.

S Well, what about the rhythm section? I thought the rhythm section nowadays, of course, makes the music in terms of making...
HB Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Well most of them playing their own idea to tell you the truth.

S Sometimes the rhythm section can ruin your arrangement. Did you tell the rhythm section to do?
HB Yeah, yeah, yeah. You got to tell them to read the music.

S What did you tell them? For example, give me some ...
HB What kind of beat you want on there. Do you want a slap beat, or

S Top hat?
HB Yeah, yeah. If you want a ____ beat, if you want a stumble beat, if you want a boogey woogey beat, playing the symbols this way and _____ going this way, and the bass drum going the other way. You don't write that.

S So you instructed him?
HB Yeah.

S All right. Now, one other thing. You mentioned the piano and they about what they want to do also. What did you tell the piano to do? Did you write for him?
HB Used to write for the piano but I don't write for them now.

S You asked them to do specific chords?
HB Yeah. Well, he's going to follow me. He listens to all the other boys, and he's got to stay with them. He's going to follow them and he sees all them instruments there playing that. Old Shelly, him, ___ ____, and he'll ___ ____. He's liable to play any kind of way, but he's

S That's the piano player?
HB Yes. The piano player. ___ _____.

S I still haven't gotten out of you, when I listen to an arrangement-you see, most of us put our signature on everything, right?
HB Yeah.

S And we do it because we want to make certain that people, when we're dead and gone, know it's me and it's not them. Now, what can I listen for in your arrangements that lets me know that that's a Buster Smith arrangement and not a Count Basie arrangement, or not a Buss Evans arrangement, or whatever?
HB Well, my arrangement knows that, they used to say that I'm not ___ ____ and they used to say they could always tell my arrangements. It has a blues ____.

S Blue note?
HB Yeah, yeah, kind of blues like, mostly blues. That's why we liked that one ___ ____.

S The blues arrangements, did that mean that you had a lot of slow moving music?
HB Oh, no.

S Oh, just the chords, then, was more bluesy.
HB Yeah, chords.

S Can you tell me enough to tell me about the kinds of chords that you liked? Like a ninth chord, or a diminished chord?
HB Yeah, yeah. The ninth chords.

S You liked those ninth chords.
HB And thirteenth.

S Thirteenth chords even.
HB Ninth and thirteenth, minor ninth, major, ______.

S My goodness. Right on. What are some of the great women singers have you performed for when you were with the Benny Moton band or the, you weren't with the Benny Moton band.
HB Yeah. I was with them.

S You were with both of them. Well, when you were with the Benny Moton or the Blue Devils, can you think of some women who sang, or man even, of big names that sang with those bands?
HB No. There wasn't women and no man either.

S No man singing either?
HB Yeah, we had men.

S Who were some?
HB Ernie Williams. Let's see, who else we had. Mostly Ernest Williams. He's in Kansas City right now and Jimmy Russian. Jimmy Russian sang with the band, yeah, he's one.

S Now Jimmy Russian is often called Mr. Five by Five, I believe.
HB Yeah, that's right.

S Why?
HB Because he always was big. They said he's as big around as he was tall.

S I see. What are some of your memories or words of wisdom or unusual things that you remember that Jimmy Russian said or did when you played for him? What are some of his favorite? Can you remember anything that was unusual?
HB Well, most of what he paid any attention to and got popular with was he ___ ___ ____ way back yonder in the 20s, and on to Chicago. Remember that?

S Yeah. When did you begin to play with Lester Young? That was the late Count Basie band, I guess, was it?
HB Oh, no, he was in the ______ Band.

S What 1930s?
HB Yeah. I was the man that got Lester Young in the band. And either one of them bands. I was the man that got Joe Jones in either one of them bands.

S How did you get Lester Young in the band?
HB Because they always believed in me. They know I'm going to tell the truth.

S Did you see him play and tell him to come join us?
HB Yeah. All right, I'm going to tell you and see how that is. We were in Sioux City, Iowa, working there on several jobs. And after the job played out, during ____ year, we got to playing one-nighters. So we wanted to go to Minneapolis, Minnesota and play a dance. And we went up there and there sat ____ ____ up there and he ____ a bass for us. We went up there and played up there. When we got through playing that night, we went around some of the clubs and see what was happening. There was Lester Young, Henry Matthews, Frank Hines in about an 8-piece band with all three of them-the three main characters, and Ruby Gass, he was a trumpet player. All of them was playing together upstairs. They had them in the far corner.

S Where was this, now?
HB In Minneapolis, Minnesota.

S In what year?
HB 1930.

S Okay. Go ahead.
HB Yeah, I think it was 1930 or 1929. Anyway, we got through playing that night and we went up there to hear this band. So, we went up there. They played some Henry Matthews and Lester Young, and they were playing some _____ sort of voices. But most of these kids were playing and I said, "Man, I don't need to get up there and play with them cats." "Yeah, man, you know that you play as much horn as them." So, I got up there and played a little number and they had just this big old bass and everybody when they got down and the whole house ____, "Play some more." So I played another tune. Then we left the next day. And we said, "Hey, we need that tenor player." That was Lester Young. How are we going to get him, you've to steal that big _____. I'll tell you whatever he had, he didn't take no solos. He just read music and a good boy, too. Grover Rodney.

S So, he kept to the music.
HB Yeah.

S Leader.
HB Yeah. Solo. And we needed that cat. So in order impress Lester Young we begged him to come with us and he wouldn't go. "No, I don't need that." So we went back to Sioux City and the banjo player, and just more Ruby and tenors there. We all got together and bought a brand new Ford. A brand new one. Then we go back to Minneapolis and show Lester Young this new car that he had bought. We bought him a brand new car. He said, "Well, ya'll sure been making money." We said, "We tell you we make some money. And you know the next thing we got to leave next month." He done got them suitcase out of the garage and got in the car. That's the way we got him. The band then went and broke up. And ____ from Virginia back to St. Louis and __ ___ as we were all _____.

S I see. So at the time he joined you you were with the Blue Devils.
HB Yes.

S And then, when you left and came back.
HB You see, Walter Paige had the band. He

S He had the Blue Devils.
HB Yeah. He had the Blue Devils after Coba quit the band, and Walter Paige wasn't much of a manager. We put him leader and he never did do much. He worked 3 or 4 years, and after that he got his Harley ____ ___ ____. And he still hardly ____ ____. So Walter Paige got kind of disgusted, so he left the band with ___ ___. So he left the band with me and Ernie Williams. Now we didn't want to be leader and look for no job because I didn't have time to look for no job. They said, "No you ain't got time. You've got to write music."
Tape stopped recording for a bit.
HB ...he wanted when the band broke up and...

S So, in short then, you're saying the Blue Devils began to break up and go join the Benny Moton Band.
HB Yeah.

S Even though both of these bands were owned by Count Basie?
HB No, Count Basie wasn't even in the picture. He was around in Kansas City but he was just playing piano with Benny Moton.

S I see.
HB You see, Count Basie came in the picture after the Blue Devils broke up down in Virginia, and he hoboed all the way back to St. Louis. Lester Young, 8 of us, and the other boys, there was 13 all together. Abe ____ in Oklahoma City right now. He's a bass player. But they all, some of them rode back home to their people without them sending them tickets to come home on.

S Now where were you this time? In Oklahoma?
HB Yeah, yeah, we were in Bloomfield, West Virginia.

S Oh, Bloomfield, West Virginia.
HB Yeah. But 8 of us didn't want our parents and people to know that we were having a hard time and the band had broken up. So we just hoboed trying to make it back to Kansas City. Because ______ done taken our horns away from us. And we made it back to St. Louis and Ben Moton heard that we was in St. Louis and he sent a couple of cars over there to pick up us 8.

S What year was this?
HB About 1933.

S Okay, and so the band had broken up, you guys didn't have a home, most of the band members' parents helped them to get back, but you and Bennie Moton and Lester Young hoboed all the way back to Kansas City.
HB Hoboed all the way back to St. Louis.

S To St. Louis.
HB And then Ben heard that he was over there and he sent two cars over there to pick up us 8.

S I see. Well, now, after you got back to St. Louis did you join the Bennie Moton Band there?
HB Yeah. Yeah. We joined his band and we weren't in his band long before he died. ___ joined his band and played, he said we got a job in Bentwood(?) to play for a week out there. And he sent us out there playing in a big white ____ hall and we played a week out there. He couldn't go because he was sick. And he died on the operating table there in Kansas City, and Buss Moton was leading the band while we were there.

S Now, Count Basie was playing with you at that time? With the band?
HB No. Basie was with Billy's band. You see, he was Billy's Band. Now, maybe, I think Basie was in the band when we went to Denver. I think he was. But, anyway, Billy's Band never did do any good after he died. Buss took the band over. Buss is hot headed. He'd get mad and cuss the boys out and then raise sand with the boys and they didn't like that. So, Basie left and went down to the Reno Club and got a job down there and came to get the guys to ___ some pieces together. And he just comes getting one boy out of Billy's Band, then the boys all left. I think I was the last one there.

S Well how is that Basie had that much pull? Did people like the way he...
HB Oh, the boys just liked him. So he got me and he begged me for several weeks to come on down with him. "Come on down here with me. I'm the leader. Come away from old Buss. Buss always wants to fight me. Here he is saying, cussing the boys and raising sand with the boys. You ain't going to get along with him." He said, "I'll tell you what I'll do. We will have the band together. There'll be Buster Smith, Count Basie, ____ of rhythm." It's in one of these books here. I don't know which one it is, it's the one that ___ ____ I assume. It's in there.

S Well, now, during this time, what were some of the first places you played at at that time?
HB Well, we went out and got us a regular job.

S Where was that?
HB Down at the Reno Club. We weren't getting but $21 a week.

S You said "Radio Club"?
HB No. Reno Club.

S Oh, Reno Club.
HB Yeah. We went in made a picture in ____. It was called "The Last of Blue Devils". Have you heard of that?

S Last of what?
HB "Last of the Blue Devils".

S Oh, I see. "Last of the Blue Devils".
HB Yeah, yeah, we made a picture. I had to go back there and ____ ____.

S After those days, I'd say in the early days with the Blue Devils, Count Basie was playing with you at that time. Right? I'm trying to get to the point where Count Basie begins; his orchestra begins to be one orchestra and begins to be a...
HB All right. I'll tell you how that ___ ____. Now, he begged me to come down there with him. I went down there and he said, "Buster, can we get to make up about 8 pieces? You do arranging?" I say, "Yeah, I do arranging." He said, "I'll pay you a ___ dime (?). It'll take us a little while." But he didn't stay long, because he went with Jimmy Long. So, I went on down there and got with Joe Jones for it. You see, down the hall and got Joe Jones coming down there and join the band. Because Jessie ____ was playing drum. He was in the band first. He's like this because ___ ___ played ___ ___. Just five play drums alike. But Jessie was kind of hard to get along with. If the music didn't sound right or somebody made their own ___ over there and it would throw him off on drums, he'd put his drums down and put his hat on and go out the door. That's the kind of fellow he was, but he was a good drummer.

S Very temperamental, though.
HB Yeah. So Basie asked me "who can we get? Jessie done quit." I said, "Well, we'll get Joe Jones." So I got Joe Jones. He said you'll get $21 a week and I get paid for arranging. I said, "All right." Then Pat Waller come in there and he said, "Ya'll got a band and that band sounds good. Some of these days I'm going to send somebody down here and talk with you, Man, and bring you fellows to New York." We said, "Awh, we've been hearing that so much."

S Pat Waller said that?
HB Yeah. Pat Waller.

S Well, he was pretty powerful at that time. He had a big name.
HB Oh, yeah, yeah, he was. He sure was; playing by himself around. So, Claude ___ come through there.

S Claude who?
HB Claude Hopkins. Yes. New York City. He came through there and he got one of Andy Kirk's trombone players. We called him Stumpie. A little old short guy who played trombone. And he was playing with Claude. He said, "I know, Man, I hear you plays an old Alto. You're going to get him." So, we got him in the band. See, I wasn't getting but $21 a week down there with Basie, but they offered me $75 a week. Where we were on the road. So I ran off of Basie. And while I was gone, John Hansel comes down there to get the band and I was gone. He said, "Where's Buster and Lipps?" He said, "They're all gone. Lipps gone away to Andy Kirks and Buster gone with Claude Hopkins." He said, "Well, get some more men. Here's $1,000. Dress up the band." Basie went and bought him a Buick car and got some uniforms in the band, they sent us to California and got Buck Clayton and this alto player. The alto player ___ ____ and got Buckley and Lipps placed and lead the band up in Burgoine in Chicago they started playing two nights at the Grand Terrace. The first thing they put on the West we had one ____ ___.

S So you were playing at the Grand Terrace in Chicago.
HB Basie was.

S Basie was.
HB I was gone.

S You were gone at that time.
HB Yeah, I had gone with Claude Hopkins.

S You had gone with Claude Hopkins. At the time they were at the Grand Terrace, what were some of the members in Count Basie Band now? Can you remember some of the names again?
HB Yes. Lester Young,

S Lester Young.
HB Hershel Evans.

S Hershel Evans.
HB Hodges played alto, and Jack Washington who played baritone-a little short fellow. Yes, you see he was in Billie's Band.

S Now Jimmie Russian mustn't have been the soloist at that time while you were with the Basie Band.
HB Yeah.

S He was with them, too.
HB Yeah. Yeah, you see Basie ___ ___ and got the band and Basie just throwed all of them together.

S I see.
HB Yeah, and put more men in there.

S Now had you already composed the "One O'Clock Jump"?
HB Yeah.

S At the Grand Terrace?
HB No. At the Reno Club. In the Reno Club.

S When you were in....
HB The Reno Club, down there in one of them ____ what I call ___

S In Chicago.
HB No. It's Kansas City.

S Kansas City. And you were playing at the Reno Club.
HB Yeah. Played at the Reno.

S And you made it up with the band there in one of those clubs.
HB Yes.

S Now where was Count Basie at the time?
HB He was there. We started with the head.

S Now tell us what the head number is?
HB Well, the head number is just no reading. You just start playing some music. It wasn't nothing but blues, blues changes and then three chords, blues changes and you set them riffs. That's all you did.

S Okay.
HB And there isn't any music. All on your own.

S So as the head is being played and the riffs...
HB I told the boys what look up would they make and I said, "I'm going to play the lead. All you got to do is follow me." And they said, and you ought to see, all of them called me "Prof" because I would smoke cigars all the time.

S Oh, I see.
HB So, they said, "Prof, make up something or other." And I started reading and I said, "Well, ___ ____ and make up something." Well, we played it in the White folk place. And ___ okay, this is mid-face White folks. _____ he said "country music, hillbilly show tonight." And the next night Mike he come down there and we was playing from 8 - 5 in the morning and so, the ___ ___ said, "Ya'll play that number that's so hot ____ ___". And after we stopped the broadcasting, ___ from 12:00 to 12:30, then Benny Goodman heard it and he wanted to know what kind of number was that. Who wrote that?.

S Benny Goodman.
HB Benny Goodman. He said, "Well I want to see that somebody who'll get that band. That band is going to move somewhere." And that's what he had listened to that one time gig. And ___ ___ called "Two O'Clock Jump".

S Oh, you did?
HB We really did.

S Was that recorded, too?
HB Yeah.

S I didn't hear that one.
HB You didn't hear it? They played it all the time. They played it on the record every night.

S How did he get the name "One O'clock Jump". Did you name it then, or later on?
HB No, I'll tell you how that happened. ___ ___ ____. The original name was "Blue Balls".

S "Blue Balls."
HB "Blue Balls." We went to Little Rock, Arkansas. You see, we went down there quite a bit. So, after meeting the band at _____, we went on down to Little Rock to play bass down there and they were playing for a club. The boy that run the club was named Sam Baker. So, this White man wanted us to broadcast one night at the broadcast station. We went there and he said won't you play 30 minutes up there. Barker said "Good advertisement. That would be fine." So we went up there and we made out the ___ and everything. He said, "That number was so hot, ya'll played so hot, got all that screen through it." He said, "What is that?" He said, "What's the name of that number?" So I told him, "Listen, his name was Blue Ball." Basie said "Yeah. Blue Ball." He said, "No, wait a minute we can't ___ over there. The ___ to everything will be listening." I said, "We can't say Blue Balls. We got ___ ___. You don't want to put that number out. That's one of the best numbers ya'll played." He said, "Well see, ___ ____ gives it? I said, "I don't know. I don't know what you call it." "Say _____," I said, "What do you want? What do you want to call it." He said, "I don't know. You the man that raised it." _____ there, he got to looking at the clock. He said, "Well, now it's near 1:00 o'clock. Time for ya'll to start." He said, "I don't know, ain't nobody got no suggestions?" I said, "No. We ____ ____," None of the boys ___ ___. He said, "I'll tell you what to do. Since it's 1:00 o'clock, just because it's near 1:00 o'clock by the time ya'll start hitting it, maybe we'll just call it 1:00 o'clock jump."

S That's the name.
HB Yes. That's really right.

S How did finally did it become so closely associated with Count Basie?
HB Who?

S "1:00 o'clock Jump".
HB I got so...

S How did the two - you know, most people associate the tune "1:00 O'clock Jump" with Count Basie.
HB Yeah.

S So how do you think that this tune - in fact, most people think Count Basie wrote it.
HB He didn't.

S How do you suppose it got to be associated with him, because he played it so much?
HB Yeah. He liked it so well that everybody made all over so he just kept it and used it as a theme song. But, it's something different. Had that cat sit swing.

S Now when this tune is bought or purchased in the music stores, whose name is on it?
HB Count Basie, Buck Cleave and some other man.

S Right. And they completely squeezed you out of that.
HB Yeah. Yeah. You see, I didn't have a copyright.

S Did you ever make...

< TAPE ENDS AT THIS POINT>

END OF INTERVIEW