"Jabbo" Smith

S = Standifer
J = Jabbo Smith
L = Loraine Gordon

S We are in the home of Miss Loraine Gordon on 2 Charlton Street in Manhattan and we're talking to Mr. Jabbo Smith, on this day February the 3rd 1983. My name is James Standifer and we're looking at Mr. Jabbo Smith. Good afternoon Jabbo, Can you tell us something about your birth, where you were born and on what date you were born.
J I was born in _____ Georgia...

S Now, I'm going to ask you to speak up just a little bit louder
J Yeah...

S You can relax...
J I was born in _______ Georgia, December the 24th.

S All right where is Pembroke Georgia?
J It's about eighty miles from Savannah...

S About eighty miles from Savannah?
J Yeah, something like that...

S Have you been down there lately?
J No...

S Why, you don't know anyone down there any more, you don't have any relatives down there.
J No, nobody down, you know, cousins and things like that you know but I haven't been down there, no.

S This afternoon we're in New York City, at the home of Ms. Loraine Gordon, on 2 Charlton Street I believe this is down town and ah we're looking at this very charming man Mr. Jabbo Smith. A very famous jazz musician and a very important person, in whom we are, interested in at the Evangistic Collection, good afternoon Jabbo...
J Good afternoon sir...

S This is February the 5th, and I want to ask you to go back to maybe a little later time in your life and could you give us the date of your birthday?
J 1908, December the 24th.

S I see, where were you born?
J In Pembroke Georgia,

S Pembroke Georgia, about where is that, is that near Atlanta or Savannah or...
J Yes, around there, eighty miles I guess...

S About eighty miles from Savannah,
J Yes...

S Is that ah, do you have relatives or parents or friends...
J Yes, I have some cousins...

S Some cousins...
J Aunts and things like that, yeah...

S When was the last time you were in Pembroke, can you remember...
J No, I was about 4 years old when I was in Pembroke...

S Oh, you left at 4...
J Yeah...

S I see...
J And went to Savannah...

S Did you ever perform in Pembroke?
J Oh no...I was four when I left...

S Oh I mean later on, you know sometime when we become a little bit more famous, or ah sometime when we go back and do things where we started.
J No, I have never been there you know, I guess my sister took me there one time, you know, which I didn't ______ _______ you know cause I was little then.

S When you left Pembroke did you leave alone or were you with your father and mother...
J No, I was with my sister, I left with my sister,

S Um-hum...
J She'd gone to teach in Savannah...

S And you lived with your sister in Savannah...
J No, I lived with my sister, in Savannah I lived with my mother...

S I see, I read somewhere that ah you were in an orphanage when you were as little as 5 years old.
J Yeah...

S How does that happen, you were first with your sister and your mother and then ...
J Yeah, but what happened ah is a guy ______ you know and she used to work, and I was to go to the Catholic school...

S Now who used to work, our mother...
J Yeah, that's right...

S And what happened...
J And I went to the Catholic school,

S On Catholic school...
J Yeah, and I was by myself while she was working, you know,

S I see...
J So ah the father came there and told her that she should put me in the, you know, orphans home school, you know, cause I was treated bad while she _______ by gangs you know,

S But when she was away, you weren't always the nicest child huh,
J Yeah that's right, yeah...

S I see, did she and then put you in the orphanage...
J Yeah, sent me to the orphanage...

S Where was your father in the mean time,
J My father had died you know,

S How old were you when he died,
J God, I don't know, you know, cause _________

S I see, ah do you remember when they took you to the orphanage,
J Yeah, I was about six years old,

S Do you remember that particular day, you know, how did you feel,
J No, I don't

S You don't remember,
J Yeah, I cried all the way, I cried,

S Did your mother go along with you,
J No, she used to work for the phone company you know, and she'd take me on the train and _______ till I got there you know,

S Oh, so they... you didn't travel on the train alone did you, did the people,
J No,

S They came to get you there,
J She used to wait for the train to get there, then the guys on the train they looked after me till the train would get to Charleston,

S Oh I see, was the orphanage in Charleston,
J Yeah,

S Charleston South Carolina,
J Yeah,

S This is the Jenkins Orphanage, huh,
J Yes sir

S Is that there now,
J Yeah,

S I was down in Charleston this a few days ago, my wife is from Charleston,
J Is that right,

S And of course her family there, but I don't remember... I don't know the Jenkins Orphanage so I don't know if it's still there, but ah evidently there are some other famous people who have been in that particular orphanage. That's very interesting because I understand you also learned to play the trumpet and the trombone there at that orphanage.
J That's right,

S Who taught those instruments there,
J Alonzo Mires,

S Who,
J Alonzo Mires,

S How do you spell that,
J Mills.

S Oh Mills, Alonzo Mills, Freddie Green is from Charleston,
J He still is,

S Yeah, he played with Count Bassie, yeah _________ know who he was, anyway ah when you were learning this instrument, did you choose the trumpet, or did Alonzo Mills say: hey look young man why don't you try this.
J That's what he done, he did this you know he put you on these things you know, but he knew everything you know in the same room you know, he be teaching me everything in this here room, you know,

S I see, in other words, you and other boys were in the same room,
J Yeah, everybody, you know he'd come out in the yard and say you come here, you come here, I think this is from Mr. Jenkins, you know, to guys that were from out of town you know, he put them on a band and so when they're in town they ______ the people.

S Oh I see, so not only did you make money for the orphanage but you also had an opportunity to visit your parents and your relatives,
J Yes,

S As you toured around,
J Yeah, you see he was a fine man, to do these things you know,

S How many would be in a touring group, about how many,
J About twelve of them,

S About twelve,
J Yes,

S I see, what kinds of pieces, can you remember the names of some of the songs that you played,
J Ah I love you Jesus and the Lord________ you know, you feel the things you done and laid back,

S Did you play blues and jazz music both,
J Yes, because you see to think of nothing you got to just run away you know, and when come and they brought it back, the outside walls you know, take up like Gus Akins you know.

S So the new tunes they brought back,
J Yeah, you would learn and you would get _______ but you know.

S Did you ah try to take a leadership role, you know, did you want to play solos, or did you sort of more be part of the ensemble of a group,
J No, well I was pretty good you know on the trumpet you know, and I'm not going to say teach the music you know that the way they teach you to do, you know, your pretty good and still things when you they had pictures of me, you know, that was pretty good.

S So you were good enough so they had pictures of you as sort of a star,
J Yeah,

S One of the soloists,
J Yeah, one of the guys _________ you know,

S I see, did you have any favorite tunes that you seem to prefer out of all the tunes that you remember playing,
J Yes, it was a __________

S No, now I didn't understand that, what,
J ________________

S Howard Holms...
J Harvest...

S Oh Harvest Homes.
J Harlis ...

S Right...
J Homes...

S Holmes, okay
J Harlis Holmes, and the tune I use to _________________________________

S How did that go, can you just hum a little piece for us,
J Yes, da, da, di, do, da, da, da...now that's the part_________________________________

S Sort of a kind of response almost there huh, by maybe the trumpet or the brass group in the one part, and then in the other part,
J Yeah, and that's what it's like you know, and ______________ I wanted to do that you know,

S Did you ever try to break lose you know Roy Elders said as a kid he always wanted to play everything fast, that's why they call him Little Speed or Little something, I forget what it was, but it indicated that he wanted to ...
J Little Jazz...

S Little Jazz, right, that's right, and he told me this because see every thing he played was fast when he was young, and young people liked to do every thing fast I guess, but did you have a tendency to play, to improvise for example fast...
J No, what to me is you see you ___________________________________

S An office party...
J Arthur...

S Oh Arthur Prior...Okay
J You know, he... all the bands were playing and he'd take us to here you know,

S So this man who was in charge would take you to hear these different important bands,
J Yeah, _______ he'd takes us all _____________

S I see,
J And when we came back I could remember that, you know and I used to teach all the guys what to do you know,

S So you'd play all the parts that each...
J Yeah, I could...at that time I could remember you know, these things...

S Now let me just back up a little bit; Mr. Walker was the name of the man, who taught the music to all of you,
J No he was the manager of the band...

S Oh he was the manager...
J I don't remember the name of the guy that taught us...

S That taught you, and he worked there at the orphanage...
J Hu-hum...

S And Mr. Jenkins owned the orphanage right...and this was about what time, about nineteen what...About
J Oh, I went to the orphanage, about nineteen-fourteen.

S Nineteen fourteen, alright,
J And I guess about nineteen- seventeen we were __________ in Charleston

S Right. Have you ever played down at the Battery?
J Yeah, we played down there a little. And on Market street

S That's where they meat meet right...
J We played everywhere ...

S It hasn't changed that much down there, the Battery is a little bit changed but Market St. is like Brooklyn, now...
J Then they'd send us to collage you know, in Sacramento, and then we'd do parades you know,

S Parades.
J Yeah.

S How did you travel did you...by bus or car or,
J Then but you know Mr. Jenkins he had a thing going you know they ______________ you know

S So you could choose the way
J Yeah _____________ we travel by cars and bus and trains what ever you got ____
You know.

S If you boys you know, was there any girls in the band,
J Oh yeah,

S Cause this was a boys orphanage I,
J After I got there they tell me there's some girls in there,

S I see,
J But before I got there I left in twenty-five,

S So there was mostly boys.
J Yeah, __________________

S Now their, you probably had a little special attention with you being first of all, performers then and you were also traveling in and out of the orphanage, what did the other orphans think about the people in the band, the boys in the band,
J Yeah, well see...

S Were they jealous,
J Just a second, I was a yard boy ...

S A yard boy, what does that mean, I know what it can mean sometime down south, but what did it mean in the orphanage.
J Yard boy, you know when you don't do nothing you just in there you know,

S Oh I see, okay,
J So they sent me down on the farm, for two years

S What did you do on the farm
J Oh, everything, you know,

S You didn't pick no cotton did you...
J Yeah, I did everything,

S How much could you pick a day...
J I did everything on the farm.

S I bet you, you never chopped any of that did you,
J Yeah, I did everything on the farm, you know,

S Uh-huh...
J Everything you learn is truly a tool on the farm.

S I'm going to test you, I'll tell you if you picked any cotton, when you picked it did you pick all the bowls off from the bottom to the top, or did you take...
J No you take it from the top you know...

S Top down and took the cotton out of the bowl,
J Yeah you know,

S What kind of sack did you have?
J Huh...

S What kind of sack did you have to put the cotton in,
J You know a big sack that you hang off your shoulder,

S So, out of duck, the thick, thick cloth and you put it right there so you could pick,
J Yeah,

S Remember that song, okay you passed that part of the test, how much could you pick a day,
J I done______ _____ _____

S How much did you get paid per pound,
J We didn't get paid nothing then

S Oh that's right you, I forget you,
J That was in nineteen-____ we didn't get paid nothing you know,

S Okay...
J You just did that you know,

S Right, right, okay alright,
J And that's a nine cars a load you know,

S Well did you, what happened to your mother in the mean time, was she still in Savannah, and coming to visit you occasionally.
J Oh yeah, she came down there one time and taught down there you know,

S Oh, what did she teach?
J She was a teacher when she died you know,

S Was she teaching reading and writing and speaking,
J Yeah, she just teached everything, cause just to be with me cause I was going off on the road on the jobs you know and she was still training there you know...

S Did she realize you had that musical talent before you left her, did she know that you had a musical ear, for example some children show their talent very early,
J Well she was a musician of sorts,

S Oh I see...
J She played organ in the church you know, and a, so I guess...

S That talent might have come naturally from your mom huh,
J She gave me piano lessons and things like that you know, so I guess it came from mom,

S Right, did you learn music, did they teach you to read music while you were in the orphanage,
J Oh yeah, that's the first thing they did,

S That the same thing with a jazz musician, that they can't read, there's no criticism against older jazz musicians in teams of their musicianship which is what it's all about, but maybe the young jazz musicians, black or white they're all, their fine but they never did have the opportunity to learn to read music well,
J Well most of them they did you know, as soon as you picked up the horn you know, __________ you know

S Ah-huh, a what, if I had to classify you, if I had to put you in a category what kind of jazz trumpet do you play, in other words, you know we can categorize different stages of Louie Armstrong for example, and a lot of people compare you to Louie Armstrong
J Well that's the field I'm in you know, I, that's the field I'm in, these people are _____ ______

S But would you be more New Orleans jazz or a ...
J Charleston jazz haaaaa...

S Charleston jazz, that a little interesting...quite different from New Orleans I'll tell you that, where you played, cause this is going to be a big skip and we're going to come back where you were, cause we still in the orphanage, but you did play I think it was in seventy-eight I believe, Miss Gordon wrote me that you a, you were, you joined New Orleans group. I've forgotten the name of it now. What was this group that you ah, in 1978,
J Oh 1978 New Orleans, Joy...

S Oh the joy makers,
J Yeah,

S How long were you with them before you left.
J ______________________________ but I went to Harlem and that's where I met Orns you know...

S You met who...
J Orns... __________ I met __________ I went to ah...

S Now I'm going to ask you to spell that name cause I didn't quite...
J Orns.

S Orange or
J Orn

S Oh Orange alright,
J Orange _________ and they did this thing here in 76 of us did this thing that ah there's this guy named, ______ _______ and I did this thing with ________ and they gave me presents you know,

S Was this here in New York or down in New Orleans,
J In New York,

S I see, was this before, this was before you began to play at the One More Time, wasn't.
J Yeah...

S This was before that, alright ah, we'll get back to the Joy Makers because I'm interested in that simply because it is again in New Orleans. Did you hear or have you heard the ah Preservation Hall performance,
J Yeah, I played there yeah...

S And you played with them,
J Yeah I played with them,

S Do you feel very comfortable playing their style jazz,
J Their well you know, jazz is just jazz,

S Jazz is just jazz, so you fit right in with that group,
J Yeah, we just fit right in cause you know, I do the style I do you know, you own your style you know to different trumpet player you know, I played melodies and some did black you know.

S How do you compare yourself if you had to, to somebody like Roy Aldridge, in terms of the style,
J Well...

S I know Roy could, you could probably do both,
J Yeah, you see to me I just play like the way I play, you know, to play either one of these you know, just play the melody you know,

S What do you think about the present day jazz players, like Roy Aldridge and Miles Davis for example,
J Well Roy played different from Miles you know and all because I hear ______ you know, cause he can you know, he was probably form the old school you know,

S Do you think Miles is too far out, what I mean by that, maybe you do know, but do you think he, his harmonies are so ah seem to be so distant at some times melodically speaking, do you think ah, could you learn that style.
J Yeah you know you play, you can differ you know,

S Would you, do you like that style,
J No, I you know I like melody to listen too... you know I like ... when you say soul, I like soul,

S You probably like melodies you can hum, Miles, he doesn't normally play melodies that you can hum and sing that's memorable, except when he's playing the old tunes of course,
J There's something I'd like to talk about, the people that are doing it now you know, they are right up on the horn you know, is what they need is exercise you know

S What register do you really prefer, you know there's also some of the younger players extend the register of the trumpet that, you know way above the overtone series even, where they are just squeaking up there.
J Yeah, well what happens you see when I came to New York in 25, ah I used to play high you know, up there you know, and then _________ ________ told me...

S Who did...
J Charlie Johnson,

S Charlie Johnson.
J Yeah, you know I _________ to him in Atlantic City you know, I _____ in Atlantic City,

S Atlantic City...
J Yeah, and I used to play high, and he say you don't play high, you don't play just you know, what you have to do,

S In the middle register maybe...
J Yeah, with the higher notes you know, and so he brought me down to play you know ...

S Was, at this time this was Charles, you say again...
J Charlie Johnson...

S Charlie Johnson, he was a trumpet player, I don't know that...
J No he was a piano player,

S I see, but he would listen to you and give you some advice,
J No, he had a band in Atlantic City, playing this piano in Atlantic City, and he played the _______ here in New York.

S Oh I see ah- huh... and when was this,
J 25...

S 1925,
J Ah-huh...

S Were you listening to people like Alberta Hunter and Sippy Wilders and Victoria Spivey in those days, did you know of them,
J No,

S But they were recording...
J But I ah....

S Were you listening to Louie Armstrong...
J Yeah, the first I heared Louie, I _________ __________ the hibbie gibbies,

S Yes, and he wrote that didn't he,
J I don't know,

S Yeah, I believe cause he was recording a thing May something in 1925, I might be wrong but... I thought he might of...no he might not have written it, but I know that was one of his big ones, but that was the first thing you heard of his,
J Yeah, that's the first time you know, well I heard one, but that was _________ Henderson playing ah something that they wanted me to you know... ah...

S It will come to you, you if you don't think of it now,
J Yeah, well any how,

S Was he with the Hot Five at the time...
J No he was with ________ Henderson,

S Oh the Fletcher Henderson Band,
J Yeah...

S I see, okay,
J Yeah he was with Fletcher Henderson you know, and that's where I heard him then...

S Did you, at that time did you make a conscious effort to try and imitate him...
J No, you know I never you know,

S He was just someone that you liked,
J No this the thing, where I ___________________

S Oh Sid De Paris...
J Sidney De Paris, he used to play the trumpet, and when I got out of school I went with Highway Marks you know, and _______ in two bar rooms Highway had the main band and the ________ brothers had to played down at the end of the hall you know, this is a ______ bar you know...

S I'll say, that's quite a group,
J Yeah, and they had to stay down at the end of the hall, I didn't know where they could play but every time I go to intermission, I'd go and listen to Sidney, you know.

S Every time you would get in to what...
J Intermission,

S Intermission...
J Yeah, I would go down there to hear Sidney, cause he had all these buckets of ________ and Ha-ha....

S Jabot, let's start again with what you were talking about Orange Kellin who was a Swedish Clarinetist, and that he encouraged you to join the New Orleans Joy Makers, ah while you were in New Orleans, did you play for a particular club,
J No, well what happened, I was like a guy ah, what's his name, after I did this thing, George Reams.

S George Reams.
J Yeah...

S Now he's the one that, didn't he ah sponsor this black Broadway here in New York...
J I don't know...

S The VIMS, or he didn't,
J No...

S Oh, that's someone else, okay...
J I remember I did that and the guy said to me in Harlem, you know,

S Ah-huh...
J I went to Hardin and I met ah this guy... I can't remember his name now. Hey ____ what's his name? Mark...I toured with them...

S You toured with them...
J Yeah, Sammy Remington,

S Okay, Sammy Remington,
J Yeah, I toured with Sammy Remington when

S Now you were touring in 1978-78 there abouts.
J Yeah,

S And you were touring then, what parts of the country were you touring mostly, all over or, mostly in the south or on the west coast,
J No, we did England and...

S Oh...
J And we did Holland,

S All over the world actually then,
J Ah...

S Holland, England,
J I was with him and ah so mostly we did England, you know.

S I see,
J And ___________ it's hard to remember them you know,

S Ah-huh...
J So, since he was __________ then ah

S New Orleans...
J Sweden...

S Oh he heard you first in Sweden...
J No he hears me and saw me in Holland...

S Oh I see, alright,
J Ah he wanted me after Sweden to come to New Orleans, you know...

S Now Orange Kellin, he lives in New Orleans I understand, right...
J Right...

S And so he wanted you to come down there and did you go,
J Yeah, you know, I went back home and he came there asking me to come down with him you know.

S Ah-huh
J So I went down there with our _____________ and everything and it was all right, so I got the chance to see New Orleans. I was...

S Were... go ahead, I'm sorry...
J I was in New Orleans when it was _______ in 26

S 1926...
J Yeah...

S What were you doing there then...
J I was _________________ they I was with Claude Hoppins....

S Claude... Hoppins... was he a musician.
J Yeah, he was ______ you know, Claude Hoppins, he wrote this song, ah I can do almost anything for you, you know,

S I can do almost anything for you...how did that go...
J da- dadd-dadd...you know...

S I see, ah-huh...
J So if he was at the r________ you know ________________- you know they was playing_____________ you know, I was a ___________________________ and...

S Did you say he was at the...I didn't understand that word...
J Rol___________

S Okay, Roseland here in New York,
J Yeah...

S Did you ever play at Minton's,
J huh...

S Did you ever go up to Minton's...
J No not ____________

S But everybody was, probably some of the same people who played at the Roseland also played at Minton's

S We're back with Jabbo and we were just talking about ...

S We're back with Jabbo Smith and we're going to go back this time to, right after he was just about to leave the orphanage, Jenkins Orphanage in South Carolina and you were about seventeen, right Jabbo.
J Yeah...

S Where did you...when you were leaving the orphanage how did that come about. Did you just say well I'm going to leave now or at seventeen they kick you out.
J Yeah.... Mr. Jenkins, he was my master, so they sent me to Sacramento State you know...

S They did what...
J They sent me up to Sacramento State, so I could teach you know, and Denmark North Carolina and they sent me up there to teach, and I'd only go where the guys was out in Sacramento State...

S Where was that...
J Sacramento State, in Orangeburg

S Orangeburg, okay...and you wanted to be up there.
J Yeah I wanted to go and _________ _______you know___________________

S And that's where you left the orphanage al together, left and went to Orangeburg...
J Yeah, I shot myself, and so they wanted to put me ______________

S Now let me see if I heard you correctly, you actually shot yourself, where. In the foot I hope...
J No...

S In the leg...
J Yeah...

S To get out of the army...
J No, then I was a kid then you know but you know, I just accidentally shot myself.

S Oh...accidentally shot yourself oh I thought, oh I misunderstood you alright,
J So naturally they put me out you know and when they put me out Mr. Jenkins said you done good,

S So you didn't try to blame anyone at the orphanage for shooting you, you did it yourself.
J No I did, I shot up in ___________ so when I come back, Mr. Jenkins said well you did the best you could ______________ you know

S Yeah,
J And now you got to go.

S Enough of that huh.
J Yeah.

S Now you were seventeen at that time,
J Yeah, sixteen or seventeen so he let me out you know.

S Is this when you, what did you do after that time, did you get your first job shortly after that.
J Yeah I came ah...he sent me home, to see my mother but I wanted to go I wanted to come up north you know, so I came up to my sisters you know and I worked in ___________________________.

S Now when did you meet people like Benny Carter, and Benny Waters,
J Well I met them after I was there...

S From Jenkins home...and came north...
J Yeah.... And I went up to Atlantic City with my sister you know and I came back...

S And you began to work at that time,
J Yeah...I met Charlie Johnson up there you know, I was working with Charlie Johnson till he came to New York then

S I see...did you know of the Gordon's, Loraine, and Vanna Gordon and did you know her at that time but you hadn't gone to New York at that time I guess. She lived in New Jersey I guess.
J Yeah, she worked with me...I got there in the middle of the ______ you know and thoughts was intentions, and I jumped a train to Chicago you know,

S Now were you with J.P. Johnson, this was what, about nineteen-twenty five or twenty six or so...
J Yeah,

S And how did you happen to meet James P. Johnson...
J Well he used to have cutting contests you know, he ah...

S What did you call them, cutting contests.
J Yeah,

S What does that mean, is it like competition...
J Yeah you get down and you play for everybody's attention you know.

S Right ...
J And James P. Johnson he gave me a giant sound off you know...

S Was this with the trumpet or the trombone...
J With the trumpet you know, cause at that time we were playing the things how to be or something you know and everybody would cheer you know. So they did a sound off at that time they changed keys on me you know,

S By changing keys to see if you could still stay with them,
J Yeah, _______ they changed keys and they found out you know ...

S That you could keep up...
J Yeah...and to do these things you know...

S Was James P, playing at the time, were you playing at the time that you would play against them.
J Yeah ...he'd just stand there at that time and at that time he was willed to go to be with ______ you know,

S Right...
J And ah... he gave me a grand send off you know to tell me that life was kind of hard you know...

S At that time if you had, you know you always want to make it big, when you were playing with James P. Johnson or at these cutting contests how old were you them, about eighteen.
J I was sixteen and I had just gotten out of school you know,

S Had just left the orphanage actually.
J Yeah...

S Were you making any recordings yet,
J No the first recording I made was with Clarence Williams,

S Clarence Williams, how old were you then,
J I was I guess the same age, sixteen.

S Oh when you were small, you were still at the orphanage then I guess, weren't you.
J No, I just...

S Had just left...
J Yeah, I just left you know...

S I see...
J And ah...

S Did you make some recordings with Duke Ellenton...
J Yeah...

S But you didn't make any with, did you make any with Charles Iris and Sidney McFiethers...
J No, I didn't make none with Sidney McFiethers but we grew up together, we used to live together in Atlantic City and what I can't understand was I thought he was the goodest, you know, they had eyes for me you know.

S Right, they were seeing this young, very talented, young man coming up...
J Yeah, ____ ____ ____ ___

S Well Jabbo's star was on the horizon...when did you make records with ah, what did you do with Claude Hopkins, you mentioned Claude Hopkins earlier, now you played, you made some recordings with him didn't you.
J Yeah, I made some things with him, ah singing now and then and songs we could do like that you know, but old Austin, he's you know, he is the goodest singer as far as I'm concerned you know, I ___________________ and everything was alright you know.

S What did you do with Sidney Bay Shea, I noticed, ah in your biography it says you played at least with other bands including Claude Hopkins and Sidney Bay Shea...
J Well with Sidney Bay Shea, I rehearsed with Sidney...

S I see...
J You know....

S Okay, ah-huh...
J And in some year he had to go back to collage or something you know ...

S What type of person, was he French or French-Black or Creole or what, Sidney Bay Shea...
J You know he was from ____________ you know...

S So solifasian or something I guess...
J Yeah, what ever it is you know...

S Did he speak French...
J I don't know, you know cause we wasn't... I just shook hands with him you know.

S I see...
J And something happened that he had to go right back to Paris or something you know. Another boys Sidney _________ you know he told me my decision, and what do I say you know, until your good you just rehearse with them you know. I didn't really play with them.

S Now when you ah, I'm very curious as to when you finally Miss Loraine Gordon, in fact I'm going to ask her to come into the picture, but just before she does...have you been married,
J Yeah...

S Do you have any children...
J Yeah...

S How old were you when you married...
J Man...

S About...
J Ha-ha-ha...

S Were you in your twenties...
J No, I was near thirty...

S In your twenties, oh I see your thirties. Do you have any children?
J Yeah...I have two...

S Are they here in New York...
J No...

S Where are they...
J They're both dead...

S Oh...they're both dead I see, do you have any grandchildren,
J No not that I know of...

S I see...but you live here in New York City on 5th and you live in the village.
J Yeah, yeah I'm here now but back then I lived in Scott Jopins house and I've had...

S In Scott Jopins house...
J Yeah...

S My goodness,
J Yeah, I lived with ____________ you know organ musicians used to come here you know ...

S Ah, what address was that, was it here in New York.
J Yeah,

S What was that address now do you recall...
J I don't remember now...

S Does that house still exist or ___________
J I don't know now,

S Okay, now I'm going to ask our hostess Miss Loraine Gordon to come in and join us and perhaps give us some more information, and contribute to what we're talking about, and we'll just stop it here for a second...

S Alright we have Miss Loraine Gordon in and I hope I'm pronouncing that name correctly, am I Loraine...
L Yes, Loraine is correct and Gordon is very good,

S How would you characterize yourself in terms of your relationship with Jabbo.
L Well I guess I'm his A number one fan, and because of that I'm in the role of his representative as far as his life in the music world goes, and I try foster his reputation and his appearances and just generally to let the people know that Jabbo's still here.

S Okay, ah a few moments ago you were able to hear us talk about Jabbo's life and some of the things that we mentioned, like Claude Hopkins, could you just review a few of those for us and ah for example, when he worked with Claude Hopkins, and when he worked with Orange Kalian and in what relationship that he worked with these people, in any order that you like actually
L Well I guess Jabbo coming up in the orchestra of Charlie Johnson's Paradise Band as a young man when he was seventeen or eighteen it was an incredible position to be in, in those days. Today Charlie Johnson is not known, except among collectors, but in that day he was the Count Bassie he was the Duke Ellington he was the best. And in that band that Jabbo played with Sidney DeParis and ah Betty Warners and Betty Carter especially, that was where the top men and the cream of the crop, that's where Jobbo got to learn to love Sidney DeParis because he played next to him and he saw Sidney in the best hats and those, equipment that he used and he loved that, and Sidney is one of his favorites. He did play with Claude Hopkins too but I don't think that was ah, the longest and most illustrious part of his career. Jobbo then of course made what are probably considered some of the greatest Jazz records ever made, in 1928, which is still around today and are testament to how brilliant he was and how he set a pace for all the great modern trumpet players today. It's there on the record, thank goodness we have that.

S What are some of those records reissued on now.
L They are on bio-graph or two sets on bio-graph and MCA just brought out, not the complete set but one whole record of those particular numbers. They've been reissued in Europe; they're in every country in the world. That small set of records which is the primo of what Jabbo has done remains as modern today as when he did them in twenty-eight.

S Are you able enough or have you been careful enough to ah keep some of the original issues of his recordings.
L Well, we have a few of them. My brother has a large collection of records in New Jersey and we do have some. You know that some of Jabbo's original records have been selling for as high as one hundred and thirty-five dollars a copy; just recently I've heard. They were bought by a collector, they were as rare as can be and ah if you can find them hold on to them but I'm so happy they've all been reissued.

S Right...
L Jabbo has a new record that just came out, he didn't tell you. It just came out in France, of a young French band that just loves Jabbo's music so much, the are the _______ band. These young French men are all professionals by the way, Michelle Bastiet who is the leader is a... and this little booklet will show you they...

S Often you are compared to Louie Armstrong, what do you think about that.
J I think it's bullshit you know, cause he was before my time you know but my common goal, we had different styles you know.

S And different styles...
J And the thing about it the way the people can play me to do it, cause I think I could do anything that he could do and could do what he couldn't do you know.

S Did he ever try you out in public,
J Oh yeah, he used to use me ________ ______ you know oh when I first moved to Chicago you know__________________________________________________
__________________________________________________________________
___________________I got all these things from Sidney you know

S Tins Bashee...
J no, singing in Paris, _________________________________________________
_________________________________________________________________

S Right well who were you talking about a few moments ago off camera we were talking about occasionally though, one time you remember Louie sort of did a thing on you. What did you mean by that, in terms of try to challenge you,
J No, when I first went to Chicago I could hardly say_________ you know, they had the band on the other stand ________ back...

S Ah-huh...
J Cause at that time I was mean _________ you know, and somebody set me down in this spot you know and I be doing the singing and everything, _____________
______________ you know and that time they ___________________ and that time__________________ so I __________________

S Was Louie surprised when he saw you reading as well, so well.
J I don't know but ___________________ in fact he wanted to team up with me you know,

S You obviously have a great respect for Loraine, I respect you for that, I think that Loraine has a similar respect, and I'm going to ask her what is her opinion when people often wether their biographers or whom ever, compare you to Louie, and how does she feel about it, I think she might feel a little bit differently.
J Oh...

S Loraine...
L Well its true you know I, everyone adored Louie, including me and too. I mean that was one of the great men of all time, but Jabbo to me, was different, I mean, I... of course I'd never seen Jabbo except in New York- New Jersey. Yeah that's not so bad, very few people didn't have experience I had with Jabbo; I'm talking about way before then. So I just have the benefit of Jabbo's great records, and there is nothing in those records that I can hear that is Louie. I mean, and people constantly compare him to Louie, and this is denigration in a way, because I don't feel they're giving Jabbo his true worth and his place as an original, truly original innovator on the trumpet. I mean he was doing things that Louie didn't do.

S For example...
L And he certainly did things that Jabbo didn't do. Jabbo 's very technically advanced; he didn't even know it, it's a natural talent. He was so technical for his day that musicians like Dizzy, call him the Dizzy of his day, and very modern musicians looked to Jabbo; what he did then, he set the roots down oddly enough for bop, which Jabbo is not totally in love with, but he had that thing and he is the bridge between Roy Eldrige and Dizzy. Jabbo was doing those things, you just got to listen to the record and hear Jazz battle that is so intricate that very few musicians today can even play that and get, you know the fervor that he got out of it. On top of that he had his original quality. So the only reason I think they compared him to Louie, which is really and truly a great complement, is that he was another great trumpet player. Like Louie was so great that it was hard to get anyone as great. And I feel Jabbo was as great as Louie, he may not have made it the way Louie did, that's for sure but never the less his talent was infinitely as great.

S Jobbo, do you write some of the solo's that we hear on recordings and some of the ah snatches of pieces that you are doing.
J No, to see the people do their thing now, you just sit until you hear the band out there ________________________________________________________ the big band had them.

S So you'd have a big band arranger who would do most of the arrangements for you and you'd improvise on that...
J No I do those things myself in the older days, you know, I just did those things myself...

S So you write those down...
J No I tell you, you see we had _______________________________and they have their favorite, but we did those things in head arrangements you know...

S Head arrangements, right,
J Yeah head arrangements, ______________________________

S Some Jazz or some musicians in general think head arrangements are the debt...well it sort of gives you the feeling of amenity because your, what ever you put in to them goes at the time that it's done.
J Well sure you have someone who say how great these guys were you know.

S But unless it's recorded it's lost.
J Yes sir, but these days we record it you know, and sure you forget some of these things you know but its done you know. Of course ______________________
______________________________________.

S Did you ever play with Mary Lou Williams.
J No...

S She seemed to have arranger for everybody, we were doing an awful lot of research for her and was just flabbergasted to see that she has arranger and written for people like Fletcher Henderson and Count Bassey you name it. Andy Kirk, cause that's her love, he discovered her in a sense. There just weren't too many women around like that,
J Yes, these fathers all us old cats...

S Speaking of old cats you have been studied and researched a great deal, Loraine showed me before we started here one recording that we began to talk about and I would like for her to tell me more about this. It's not American group is it Loraine?
L No this is a French group, and it's called The Hot Antic Jazz Band, and the men in this band are all professionals and they love jazz very much, as most Europeans we know are first to love it. And the leader Michelle Basteid is an ophthalmologist one man is an architect but never the less they have always loved Jabbo's music, and they did study all his sides on ______ _______ and they play them all, and their dream was to get Jabbo to come to Europe and to a concert performance with them, with him playing today, and them playing the music that he did in twenty-eight. Well that dream came true last March, I went with Jabbo luckily cause it was one of the great trips of all time. We traveled all over the south of France and Italy; Geneva and many concert halls, beautiful places in Europe and we played, Jabbo played with the band, and they brought out this record just recently. They just sent it to Jabbo and we have a few copies here. They have old pictures of Jabbo in the early days in the orphanage, and at Fort Hopkins and at the Alcazar on Newark, where ever they could get some pictures together, and the whole story of Jabbos life inside. I think they did a fabulous job. They even reproduced a letter that Jabbo wrote to them, where Jabbo tells them how thrilled he was to play with that band, anyway, it just came out here in this country, and its one of the few records that are recently out.

S Whose label is that Loraine...
L It's just called memories...

S So we want to...
L It's just the one French record...

S But if we wanted to purchase it... at discount records or ah ...
L You have to really get it through me...

S Okay...
L And I'd be glad to...

S Is this the place in New York that you think that everything, all the records are sold ah...
L J&R's...

S No...
L Sam Goodies...

S Goodies ...
L Well let me tell you there's a little record store around the corner here that has just bought a number of copied from me right here on Bleaker St. right here in the village...

S Okay...
L They have the record for sale, so I'll do it through mail order...

S All right...let me... did you notice...open the inside again there and there was a little... in the corner there on the right hand side where your fingers are, that's a very interesting picture. What is that is that when you were in the orphanage?
L As you learned from Jabbo before, he did grow up in the Jenkins Orphanage in South Carolina, Charleston, and this is a picture of one of the bands. There were many, more than one band that Reverend Jenkins put out on the road so to speak, to gather money to keep the orphanage going and this is one of the bands. And they had little uniforms cast off uniforms, put together. Any kind, and they all stood on street corners or went to visit some famous people that they played for, and they have a leader in the middle who would dance and do kind of acrobatics and pass the hat around, and the band did play, and they didn't play jazz so to speak, they played the popular tunes of the day. They played marches, waltzes and as Jabbo said they learned from the Pryor, Arthur Pryor's big band, and they played popular music. A little jazz crept in here and there but this is a typical group from the Jenkins Orphanage.

S I see...
L And Jabbo, who is one of these young men, perhaps not in this particular picture but this is generally what they looked like.

S You speak with such zest about Jabbo Loraine, how did you happen to learn such a great deal about this man and gain such a great deal of information about him?
L Who knows, I mean that's the wonders of jazz you know. We were very young you some how select certain kinds of music and for some reason peculiar reason, jazz was...not peculiar, terrific reason was something I loved very much along with my brother. We grew up in north New Jersey, which...

S That's that other place across the way...
L Right over there a lot of people...and there are a lot of great jazz musicians living in Newark and one of them happened to be Jabbo Smith, who was playing at a club called the Alcazar, not too far from where we lived. So as young kids my brother and his wife, who is now his wife, would go over to hear Jabbo. But meanwhile we collected records and some of the greatest records we had were Jabbo's original records on Brunswick. Prior to us knowing him in Newark we didn't know who he was, we just knew these were fabulous records. So he became one of out favorites and he was not around very much so we never knew where to hear him. Except there he was in Newark, of course we grew up and left, and Jabbo went off to Milwaukee, where ever he was we really didn't know, but we always had the records. Then one day quite by accident I discovered Jabbo was playing around the corner from here many years later, in a show called One More Time. I was so excited that I ran over to see him here, my brother came and there we saw him, sitting up there just playing so beautifully and singing. See Jabbo is a terrific composer too. Most people don't know that, but in the show he had two original songs, Love and Yes, Yes, Yes. Any time he got up to sing that song, Love, I mean the audience just went crazy. I went every night of course when he was there, to hear him. And jazz people came from all over to hear Jabbo, you see because they're such collectors. When the word had gone out that Jabbo Smith is alive and well, he's playing right down here in the village, everyone went streaming down to see him. And so he stayed in the show for two years. And during that period of time Jabbo and I got to know each other a lot better and he needed some help in his music affairs and his business affairs, so I offered to more or less represent Jabbo and that's where we are today. We're trying to still, hanging in together, working out another tour, for Europe, hopefully in May he'll go to Braden Holland and play with this band that he loves and a Dutch band called oddly enough the Hot Dogs and they ______ ______ so we're working on that now.

S I think that this may be a good time to note for us to end part of this and ah since we were on the One More Time, is that still running?
L It's closing tomorrow, and I want to go there to see the last day. It's run since 1980,Jabbo was in there for one year, he opened in it and then went into national company, he toured all over a lot of the United States, so he was in there for two whole years. So it's actually been 3 years that it's played there at the gate, and now it's closing.

S I think excuse me, I was about to say, I think a wonderful way to end a tape we could maybe have Jabbo play something for us if he'd like. Would you like to Jabbo?
J ahhhhh

S If you'd prefer not to I won't press you.
J Ddooon't press me...

S Don't press you?
L Why don't you just sing...

S Or if you sing us a little tune of anything. Could you sing us a little tune that you do in One More Time maybe? Just a little of it....
J No...
L It's such a beautiful ballad, sing it to me...

S Okay...
L Historically on of the important things, I just mentioned that Jabbo composes and he has done a song called; I took my little daughter to the zoo, which is one of the most wonderful songs to. Your going to hear it because Buck Clayton, another great trumpet player, is now in the process of arranging three of Jabbo's original compositions, one of them being I took my little daughter to the zoo, for the Mel Lewis band. Seventeen piece band, which plays every night, every Monday night at the Village Vanguard. They want to play Jabbo's music; finally a big band is going to play Jabbo's original tunes arranger by Buck Clayton. I think that's pretty historical that these three great musicians from different times more or less, are getting together to put down his music, and then we hope to record it. So we'll have Jabbo singing his numbers, he'll play with the big band and they'll be doing his originals, triple trick, finally Jabbo.

S Well I think It's unfortunate you talked about ah people haven't written about Jabbo, that Loraine Gordon had to come out with about a biography of Jabbo's ...I'm just fascinated just to listen to you and occasionally while your talking I have my camera on Jabbo's face and I see he's fascinated too, sometime almost in tears the way you talk about him. I know I would be the first person to rush to the ah, publisher to buy a copy, Loraine and I think you ought to do it, soon.
L It has to be an oral history, I don't think I can write, but I'm going to try. I've collected many, many tapes on Jabbo, just he and I having a conversation, so there are so many parts of his life that have not been talked about and they're just beautiful. And I have many, many tapes he did, musically when he played the west end. I taped every single night, which I hope to bring out on a record too. And so his life will be complete someday, in between covers of a book.

END OF INTERVIEW