Mrs. John Work

August 22, 1980

S = Jim Standifer
W = Mrs. John Work

S We're at the home of Mrs. John W. Work of Nashville, Tennessee on August 22, 1980. I had to pause there for a little while because it's been a long night. We've had a beautiful night here at Fisk University at a Black Music Institute. Today and tonight we'll hear some works by compositions by Mr. Work, a special concert. However, at this point, we're talking to Mrs. John W. Work and I'm going to ask her about the career of her husband and hopefully later get into something about Mrs. Work herself. Mrs. Work, could you tell us something about the house where we are now?
W This house was built shortly after Biddely Hall was built. It was built by Adam Keith, the first principal of Fisk University. As large as this house is, it was built for him and his wife and two little girls. I had wondered many times how they were able to stand the house or to live in the house during the winter. But, as the ____ told me many years later, they were cold most of the time. They had a hot air system but without the - what do you call it...

S The fans?
W The fans. The hot air was not very satisfactory, but that was what they had to contend with at that time. I suppose they used many of the fireplaces.

S I see. How long have you been in the house-you and your husband and family?
W We bought the house in 1937-August 1937.

S that's a year after I was born, incidentally.
W Well, our youngest son had celebrated his second birthday on the 27th of August.

S Well, that's very interesting that a young couple would be able to move in a house of this dimension. Was that usual in those days?
W it was not usual. It came about in this manner. The house we lived in, across the street, belonged to John Work, II-his father and mother. But it was heirs' property that belonged to the 5 children. There were 5 Work children, and that house belonged to them.

S I'm going to interrupt you just a minute. Where was Mr. Work, your husband?
W He was the oldest and upon the death of his mother and his father, he assumed the responsibility along with me, of 3 minors. The sister who came in here just now, had just had her 11th birthday when we married.

S What is her name?
W Frances. She's Frances Austin now, but she was the youngest and when we came back from our 2 or 3 day honeymoon, these 3 minors moved in with us.

S Oh, so you had...
W And we assumed full responsibility for the 3 of them.

S Almost like you had a ready-made family.
W We had a ready-made family.

S that's quite a challenge for a young married couple with a baby of their own.
W Well, it was quite a challenge and more than a challenge was that of my parents who thought I was a little touched in the head. Laughter

S But they _____ 's responsibility.
W they just could not understand why I had accepted that responsibility.

S So, with that girl and then, you said there were 2 others?
W Two others.

S What was their names?
W One is Helen Work. She finished Fisk. Then Julian Work. Julian Work has been (sounds like fishing(?). I don't know whether you knew that or not.

S No, I didn't know that.
W Well Julian is a very, very fine musician. Most of his work is composition confined in the field of symphonic band, but he's somewhat retiring.

S Where is he now?
W He's in Tolland (2 miles from Zandersfield), Mass., and he's about the only person in Tolland.

S Is he a practicing musician?
W Not now. I think he's writing.

S What age is he now? About?
W He's in his late 60s.

S And he's the chronology wise...
W He is the fourth in the family. I'll tell you this, he's very, very musical. Very musical. Perfect pitch and all of that and his reason for not-he wanted to major in music at Fisk, but at the time he was at Fisk, he was far more interested in the jazz area than in the classical music, and he and his music teachers did not agree.

S I can imagine.
W But he played bands.

S how many of those five, then, in totality went to Fisk?
W All went to Fisk. Julian didn't finish, because after the music major disappointment, he wanted to major in music, but there was this conflict with Ms. Chamberlain and the jazz, and he went into mathematics for teaching ___ ____, then he went into sociology and then he joined the band as the pianist.

S I see.
W But he was quite a jazz pianist.

S This conflict he may be...
W Of course, that was back in 1929. He was very young, but he really could play jazz.

S We're going to stop for just a minute to look at what we've got thus far and then we'll continue.

<skip in tape>

S We're back with Mrs. Work. I think we stopped at how you acquired this house which has since, I understand, become an historical monument.
W Dr. Jones... Jones has decided that the Fisk ______ all of the property on that side of the street were on unbound to 16th, and our house is the one house there that they didn't have, although, Ms. Meyers' house was next to it.

S Who is Ms. Meyers?
W Ms. Meyers was James Meyers who was in charge of _______. But Ms. Meyers just said, no she wasn't going to sell. But, my husband was a little under the hammer and he was-and really, in reality, we were forced to sell because Dr. Jones practically demanded that we sell.

S Now, Dr. Jones, that's the president of Fisk?
W That's the president and he wanted the house. We really didn't know what to do because this property out here in North Nashville was not that available. We didn't have a car and it would have meant that we had to find some place accessible for school, not only for John but for the boy, and we were really in a frantic quandary that summer wondering how we were going to manage. When Mr. Beal, who was the comptroller, suggested to Dr. Jones that this house was not on the line with this, and it was creating a little bit of a problem. I really don't know what the problem was. And maybe they could sell this house to us. And Dr. Jones agreed. I always felt that Mr. Beal was _____ than that, but we didn't know what to do, so we called my father. In those days you didn't make a long distance call, and my father said, yes, buy it.

S And your father was in Charleston.
W He was in Charleston because he was banker and we would later seek his advise and we bought the house for $8,000.

S Of course, $8,000 at that...
W $8,000, they didn't give us but $5,000 for the house across the street. I think it was probably less than that, $4,000.

S But that was a lot of money.
W That $4,000, that's all they gave us for that house across the street with the large lot.

S this was 1929?
W No. this was 1937.

S 1937, oh, that's right.
W 1937, right after the depression. We were out of the depression but things were still bad. And we moved over. Ms. Finn lived in the upper apartment and she continued to stay there in the upper.

S So in this homestead you had you and Mr. Work, your two boys
W And Frances.

S And Frances. And then, the two boy, this was your-and also your little baby.
W My little boys. Our boys.

S All right, I was thinking about ...
W A two year old and a five year old.

S Okay. And Ms. Austin(?).
W And she had just entered Fisk.

S Well, now, Mr. Work then had begun-when did he begin teaching at Fisk?
W It was never his plan to come back to Fisk. When he finished Fisk-I don't know if you knew it or not he was not a music major.

S Yeah, I knew that.
W He was a history major and he became a history major because he was interested in football and had he majored in music, he would not have been able to be on the football team, because the music department demanded that you come to the recitals every Friday and to the music appreciation class the other Friday. And that Friday would have been the Friday that the football team would be leaving for the Saturday game.

S How'd he work that out?
W By majoring in history. He majored in history, but he took theory and took voice. Upon graduating from Fisk, he went to New York with the idea of studying voice and theory and that's when he went to the Institute of Musical Art.

S All right. And what's
W And the Institute of Musical Art is Julliard now.

S What year was that again?
W The Fall of 1923.

S Okay. Now how long was he at what was then the Institute of Musical Art?
W He was there that entire year. In the meantime, the problems here at Fisk had increased and _____ MacKenzie, the president who was in reality a type of dictator had created so much confusion in the light of John Work, II, that he had decided that he could not take it any longer and when he was offered the presidency of Roger Williams, that was a Baptist college which is now a part of Lemoine and Owens in Memphis. That was one of the reasons he ended up there. He accepted the presidency of Roger Williams and went there. Not Nashville, but nearer the river. It's ___ ____. However, he was somewhat broken hearted. He had been at Fisk all of his life.

S And this is Mr. Work's father?
W Yes. He had taught at Fisk practically all of his life and he just couldn't take it and he became ill and after the second year, he went there in the Fall of 1923 through 1924 and then 1924 to 1925 and in September of 1925, John felt that he could get his father to New York to a heart specialist there that he could be helped. He was just in his early 50s.

S My goodness. That's young.
W And Mrs. Work would stay at Roger Williams and hold things together until he got back. And Helen, the older daughter, was to go with him to New York and then on the train in the station in a drawing room, and as we worked over him he died.

S Oh, before he even left?
W Before he even left. He just-well, John got out-there was no money, and he took his mother and three minor children on to New York. We rented a house for them up there in the Bronx, and I had a little _____ up there where he wrote every day how much money he made. I think he told me that he had to make-he worked at Grand Central Station-and for another period of time in the post office. I think he had worked in the post office a year before his mother came up there, because that was a period of time that he found that he had cupsolacolon(?) that his throat was not in good condition to sing. He is continuing to take voice lessons from a very fine teacher there, and I remember him telling me that he went to Connecticut to the, I believe you call it an interview, but this woman was ________ if she approved - the group of people approved of him, her name was Mrs. Callie and he went up there and he said his voice just ______, but he was not really to sing after that period of time-I mean consistently.

S Right.
W He would never-he said he couldn't attend to ______ voice.

S Was it then that he decided to become a composer?
W No. Not even then. By this time, you see, he's so tied up with trying to make a living...

S For his family.
W ...for his family. And all that year in New York, he working as a Red Cap, having to make $2.50 or $3.00 every day to meet his expenses. And at the end of that year, in that summer, the new president had come to Fisk. That was about the time _____ _____. And Mrs. Work had decided that she could no longer let John assume that responsibility. She had to try to do something else. It was known by the family that Mrs. Work had just given up on living. She just said, "I don't want to live." Despite the fact that she had this 7-year old child, she just did not want to live.

S So that's when Mr. Work had to assume responsibility of mother and father.
W That's exactly it. And he wasn't but 22 or 23. Well, the sesquicentennial was in Philadelphia at that time and she trained a group and took them on over there and sang, and I heard them. That was 1926.

S Well, how did you happen to be there?
W I was academic alumni and the medical meeting was in Philadelphia and my father told me that my father and, I had 2 friends, their father told us to come on over to the Lavelca and join them and we went on over and joined our fathers. We had a good time in a way, but we admitted that they were a mess, these old men, because they couldn't help us find any young men so they just ended up giving us a bunch of money and telling us to go on downtown and have a good time. But they asked her to come back to Fisk and train a group. Fisk was trying to become, Dr. Jones was trying to rehabilitate this again. You see, it had gone down, but he had a chance for it to get up again. And she came back, brought the family back and they opened up the house and that February she took a week to go on up to St. Louis. _____ _____ to be with her, and she had a stroke on the stage.

S This was her first organized tour after assuming.
W A student organized tour. So John went and got the body and she was buried. And here he was left with 3 minors and the school asked if he would continue her work for the rest of that year. Well, he really was pissed. He didn't know where he was going, but he did. He decided that he would go back to Columbia. I think he had had one semester at Columbia. I think that, I'm trying, I think he had another year, but anyhow he said he would come back and work that year. At the end of that half of year, Payne College in Augusta was having a ministers' conference and they asked him to ask somebody if they could come down and take care of the music. And he went down and then he came-he was to come to Charleston to meet William Henry Grayson. I don't know if you know who I'm talking about. The Grayson family there in Charleston. But Johnny took a long time getting down there that William Henry had gone and a friend of mine and a friend of his told him that I was still living in Charleston and he came back to see me. I told him that I was leaving the next week for Columbia and I was to call him when I got there. So I called him and we went out a few times, and by the end of the summer I had come through ____(?).

S Boy, that's fast work wasn't it?
W That was fast work.

S The Works work fast.
W But you see, we were classmates at Fisk.

S Oh, that's right.
W We were classmates at Fisk and he had tried to be friendly at Fisk, but he gave up and he said I was interested in someone else, and he became engaged to a little girl who lived across the hall from me.

S I see. Now, after the marriage, did the marriage take place in Charleston?
W Yes, but not that year. He came back to Nashville. I had done two years at Columbia and this third year-you see, he went back to Columbia on the third year. That was his second year. That was his second year back to Columbia and I really wanted to go back to Columbia that summer, but my mother said what most people said in those days, "You're going to get married aren't you? You won't go back to school." So I didn't get back to school.

S What were your feelings, knowing full well that you were-in spite of the fact that I know you were devoted to and continued to be devoted to Mr. Work, but you also are a very intelligent woman and very probably aggressive person in terms of your own right. What were your feelings about to be married to a man who had such responsibilities and knowing full well that your own education and career perhaps were going to be terminated as a result of that? How did you really feel, or did it really matter?
W I'll come back with the music business. I had had piano from the time I was about 7 years old. My father had bought this Shaunager Piano. They're very good. And I had had music lessons and I learned the parts in classical, you learned. I could learn. But I was never able to do what my friends could do-hear a song and pick it up. I couldn't do that. I couldn't improvise, I couldn't memorize, I couldn't any of that, but I could keep time and I could put the notes, you know, it was that type of ______. I think one of the things, every time company came, my mother would say, "Edie, go on there and play a piece." I'd go and my mother would say, "That's a balk." It was a very miserable experience with the music and I never learned to memorize. I just could not memorize. I could memorize-I memorized the page, but if the page dropped in my memory, I lost the music. So therefore I was not very successful, but then I came to Fisk. I had to take physics over because I had to have-the laboratory work insisted. In those days you had to take chemistry and physics. And high school.

S Oh, High School?
W And even one of those schools had all these courses, but they didn't have a laboratory. And, in taking the physics, I learned that I didn't-there was something about my getting pitches and that was the reason I couldn't...

S Couldn't memorize.
W ...reproduce what I heard. I could not do that. So, when John and I got into this place that we were interested in marriage. You see, I was 24 then in 1926 the period of time had passed when I had wanted to marry Paul ____ when I finished Fisk, because I had gone with him for about 7 years, and my father would not even let him give me a ring on the basis that I did not know enough about Paul. Of course, I couldn't understand it then, but that was the truth because at Fisk school was very, very sheltered. We were very sheltered. You couldn't go 10 ft. of the wall. That's literally true.

S You mean the wall that separated you and
W that wall at Jubilee Hall.

S And that was as close as you could get.
W It was as close as you could get to the wall and my social contacts had been limited. If they had not been limited, I would not have finished Fisk at the time I did. But they were limited. I went to Crochet School at Ms. Morrison - the old lady Mrs. Morrison.

S In Charleston.
W Yeah. That old lady, Ms. Morrison, and I did not like her. She's the old lady, not Ms. Edna. The grandmother. I said to John one day, we were talking very seriously about this business of marriage, and what one contributes to a marriage. And I said, "John, I can't give anything to help you with your music." And he said, "I don't need you to help me with my music. There are so many other things that I need from you, and if you will help me with these other things, I will take care of the music." Now, my interest has always been literature and poetry and I couldn't write. I guess I could, but that was my interest, and there were so many things in our early years that you would not even think that people did things like that. John and I read books together. I mean together. I mean just...

S Would you go a chapter a night? That kind of thing?
W No. ________. Sometimes we'd sit up there in the bed and read page by page together. Every Saturday-every Wednesday, he would get downtown to get the Saturday Evening Post because there was a detective story series-I can't think of it right now, but they were stories that we'd read. I think they're the ones that Perry Mason...

S Based on?
W ...but changed a little bit.

S Something like Elery Queen type thing?
W And we would read those series and Frances would say, "I would get through with my lessons and sit on the floor there and listen to you all read those stories." But that was the type of thing that we did together. I think I contributed to him in that area, and the area, of course, not in music, but later, the years that I took music was 7 in Charleston and then 2 years at Fisk. I did learn to memorize it there. I don't know, but I still went through that page up there.

S Well, maybe the environment or the mental block of a bad teacher.
W Well, that's what John always said it was a poor teacher from the very beginning.

S Right. And that happens.
W Now when my boys began piano at 4, I not only practiced with them every day, but I went to every lesson.

S That's great. That's rather unique, too.
W That was every lesson, and when it came time for rhythm and for keeping time, they knew how to do that because I counted time, but maybe some other things maybe I missed out on.

S Now was Mr. Work the oldest boy? Was he musical?
W He was not the oldest child, he was the oldest living child.

S Okay. His name is-your oldest son?
W John. All of them would say...

S John III.
W ...John Wesley Work, III is my husband. John Wesley Work IV is my son.

S All right.
W John Wesley Work, V is my grandson.

S Was it about this time that Mr. Work began to compose, or had he already been composing all along?
W Evidently he had been composing for years, I mean indirectly.

S But just had not been published perhaps.
W Well, Mandy Lou - you know about Mandy Lou?

S Right.
W Mandy Lou was when he was about 15 or 16 and that became his first published tune.

S When was that?
W In 1928. That was...

S So Mandy Lou which you said Mr. Work really wrote when he was 16 years old.
W He began it.

S He began writing on this particular composition and when was it published?
W In 1928. His father wrote the words.

S Ah, I see.
W His father wrote the words, and they're very beautiful words.

S And this actually was published and copyrighted for 1920?
W 28.

S 28. Okay. So he was really composing as a very young man at 15 years old, then.
W I think I was fortunate not to have had a girl, because he always said if he had a daughter he was going to name her Mandy Lou. I said, "Heaven forbid".

S Can you imagine it.
W So, he said "Well, maybe we'll really name her Amanda Louise."

S Ah, that's...
W but call her Mandy.

S My God.
W But that would have been terrible.

S I can just imagine. After that, did the chronology begin to...
W By that time he was at Yale. I'm not quite sure what was the first one after that but I know "Poor Old Lazarus" came along.

S Ah, and that's a beautiful piece.
W And Poor Old Lazarus, his teachers at Yale expected him to get a very large royalty from Poor Old Lazarus.

S Did he?
W No, not really. I think he began to see then that royalties don't come in what we call large numbers. He sold 1,000 copies at 2 cents a copy. You're not getting very much.

S Well, it's just like us in Education, we publish a book and I see this little royalty coming every month. You might get a check for $10.00 or $20.00. After a while it adds up, but it's just not a big amount. But if it comes every month, maybe it adds up until maybe you get $200.00 a year.
W I got a check the other day for Appalachia and Stephanomic.

S The Stephanomic Suite?
W Yeah. And it's small, but then I realized that at least 50 copies of each had been sold within this year and that was not bad, although I don't think the check-I think the combined check was something like $18.00 - something like that, but for sheet music. I think that wasn't too bad considering I have gotten $1.00 in some years.

S Was Mr. Work's early compositions recorded from which he also received royalties at that time?
W I'm getting some of these now. I'm getting some recordings.

S But in the early days for the most part these were not recorded.
W No, they were not recorded.

S When Mr. Work worked as a composer at home, was he a compulsive worker or was he very methodic and working every evening he'd come home and work? Or how did he...?
W More compulsive I suppose you would call it. Compulsive and definitely addressing the characteristic of the creative person. Sometimes if the spirit moved, then it might be a week or two weeks of work.

S And other times?
W Day and night.

S Did you find, then, as is true of many creative persons that, especially in the eyes of a spouse, that it was difficult to get through to him for other things if indeed he had this one thing as if he had to deliver as if it was a baby until he could really take up his life with his family again. Was he that type of composer?
W In a way, but not ugly about it.

S No.
W But I think that maybe I understood it and accepted it. But, one time, the boys and I went to Charleston almost every summer on my father's ticket.
Laughter

S Now we know.
W And, of course, one particular summer I knew he was trying to get some work done and I said, "Well, now you will be able to do this, because we'll be out of your way". And about a week later he wrote and said, "I cannot write, I miss the boys, I miss their walking on me, and I don't know how I'm going to write."

S I need the distraction.
W "I need the distraction." But he wrote with them sitting up on him. I think-and he would not work downstairs. We had a room downstairs. He said, "It was just too quiet down there.
He had to work in confusion, and the family confusion.

S That's great. Right. I know what you mean. I can appreciate that feeling.
W So, I think, he was not distracted by the family.

S As he began to write more and more, can you think of some of the compositions that pleased him most-the early compositions-as he heard it performed?
W I don't know_____ Lou, he did that first for Saratoga Spa .

S Now when you said for the Saratoga Spa, was that commissioned or he knew he was going to do this?
W It was not commissioned-I don't think it was commissioned. When you say commissioned usually you're paid for it, right?

S Right. It's similar to the one that _______ did.
W No, no, no. He was not paid for it, I know that, but he did it and it was performed by the Saratoga Spa first.

S I see.
W But you see, he didn't hear it.

S Oh, he didn't. Oh, is this the one that he later heard the first time on the radio or something?
W Then it was done by the National Gallery and they sent him a record.

S Oh, I see.
W And put the record-we had the machine up here then-and he said, "It stinks." And I didn't pay any more attention to it, but after he died and they had that program down in Atlanta, you know, the ________ that was one night and the Black composers the other night, and T.J. Anderson called me or wrote ____ to send it down there, and I couldn't find it. I could only find the string arrangement, and I know that there was enough cash to arrange it because the record shows that and there were 2 copies of the oboe left. Now, he tore that up.

S He didn't like it, huh?
W He didn't like it so he did it in strings. But I didn't know he had changed it.

S you still have not been able to locate that particular orchestral score.
W Oh, no, no. He tore it up.

S So you know that then.
W Well he had to. The only thing that's left is the oboe. And you see, that day he played the record and he said, "It stinks", and out the room he stepped.

S Well, I guess it's like any other creative person, if you create something and when you see it and really dislike it, you don't want it to be around for...
W But you know, it's been very sad to me with all of these orchestral things that he did that he never heard one.

S Oh, none of these?
W None of them he heard.

S with the exception of this particular one.
W And that was just on that record.

S Now, it seemed like when he was teaching he said there was something that came over the radio. It seemed like it was something for strings that he did hear of his but he didn't even realize-it wasn't the orchestral thing...
W It wasn't orchestral.

S It was a small ensemble or something like that, I guess.
W There was a violin thing-Cabaret.

S That may be what I'm thinking of. Do you think, while not having heard anything, part of this might have been due to the fact that he was working at a university that did not have an orchestra, which is a considerable disadvantage for any composer, and which is an advantage for anyone who works, for example, a university who has a disposal of all kinds orchestras.
W It's not the fact that right at that period of time when he was writing, Blacks weren't accepted in a lot of things. You see, you're in a little different age now. You're after the 60s.

S Right. So, it's a matter of timing, appreciation, and sensitivity, maybe more than anything else. It wasn't the need to look at our own roots and appreciate the thing that was right under our noses, it seems like. Did Mr. Work find ever so bitter not having the resources to hear his own works and to correct and do after having heard those things. Bitter is not the word.
W It's not bitter...

S Because he never was a bitter person.
W But he would have loved to have heard those things. And yet there wasn't anything he could do about it.

S How did he feel-well, you don't catch how a man feels-but did he ever express to you after having been rejected when he sent a publication in or work and it was not published or was not performed?
W Very bad.

S Could you ever tell?
W Very bad. He used to say many times, they come back before they get there, and that was an actual fact. He'd send them up one day and it seemed to us that the next day there they were again, and happens with many compositions, and sometimes, some of them they kept a while and then returned. There was one something that he had wrote, "Remember Now Thy Creator", and he was trying to do it, I'm not a theory student and I may be using the wrong term, but he was trying to get into 12 tones to do something with this more modern form and he wrote this, but he wasn't sure of it, and he sent it to Yale to one of his old theory teachers. This happened shortly before he passed, and Mr. Donaldson sent it back marked up with red, but then he put a letter there, it's a long letter, I have letters from his teachers, "John Work, that is not your style and it's not for you. You go back and write this in your own beautiful style and not that." But you see, John didn't want it like that. He wanted to try his hand at something else. Now, he did finish it. I have a copy finished in another style. I have several compositions still not published. There's a lot of them still not published.

S Did he normally sign his works after he manuscript them?
W Yeah.

S So, these are autographed copies.
W You see, now, "Dancing in the Sun" I didn't know about. I didn't know I had "Dancing in the Sun", and that's another thing. I cannot find that copy of "Dancing in the Sun" now. I don't know whether Patterson inadvertently took my original copy and didn't send it back to me.

S We'll find out.
W Well, please ask him did he have my manuscript...

S Of "Dancing in the Sun".
W of "Dancing in the Sun", because I cannot find it. It's copyrighted. I have the copyright.

S Well, to have that autographed copy,
W But that's not the one I wanted.

S Right. When was "Dancing in the Sun" written, do you recall?
W When it was written?

S Right.
W I don't know when it was written. On the program they had 1977, but I don't know when it was written. I did not know-I had to go back and find out about "Dancing in the Sun". I know the copy was there and I know Patterson took it.

S Does Simone Allen mention this in the Fisk News that I got several years ago?
W That wasn't in there.

S At that time she didn't catalog that. Well maybe she didn't have access to it, though.
W Yes, she would have had access to it. But this was done later.

S I see.
W And I know when he had that Halloween book. Halloween's little poems. In fact, I had to go and look up how _______ again, because I had forgotten who she was. Halloween is a woman.

S Oh, I didn't know that.
W Halloween is a woman.

S And the _____ thing is ____ lyrics is from...
W Halloween.

S I see, and was the poem by the same name?
W The poem was the same name.

S Was this a Black woman?
W No, a White woman.

S A woman poet. Did Mr. Work ever do anything on the ________ such as Mr. Haydn or Mr. Collins or Mr. _______,
W At college, yes.

S At college. Can you recall anything he'd done at the college? I saw him yesterday. I was shocked because he hasn't changed a great deal.
W He looks good.

S Yah.
W "My Heart's in the Swampland in _______."

S Is that Mr. Collin?
W yeah. "My Heart's in the Swampland at Oxen." It didn't sell too well.

S Is that for piano and voice?
W Yeah, piano and voice. And then he has Howard Thurman's "E'vn, Oh God, I Need Thee".

S No. I don't.
W That is a beautiful song.

S Did you know there is a woman at Indiana University by the name of ____ Klottman who is now researching everything she can on Howard Thurman? It's very interesting. She called me and asked me if I could give her any leads on where I could find any materials on Howard Thurman. She's just unearthed some stuff that has never been published. How much did you know about Howard Thurman?
W I know I've got a picture of him over there.

S Mr. Work has written some pieces based on his...
W He's got this one song, "God I Need Thee".

S "God, I Need Thee."
W It's in publication. It's a beautiful song.

S What did he write for voice? Soprano, bass...
W bass and baritone.

S "God, I Need Thee." Does Mr. Patterson have this in his collection?
W No. ____ ____.

S What are some of Mr. Work's favorite lyricists such as Anna Bontemp, Lexis Hughes? I think the public assumes certain things, but can you ever hear him?
W No. The one that "Sing the Night Soliloquy" that's the one that I like best. I think that that is a beautiful song. The words are so beautiful.

S Did ____ oh, what's the bass when I sing that - O'Banyon, the night of the soliloquy on one of our programs?
W I don't think so.

S Was that originally written for bass?
W No. I don't think so. I think it's written in two voices. Now the one that John likes is "God, Emnifee" and he likes the "Frequent ______."

S Those are two of his favorites?
W Have you seen _______?

S No, I haven't. I haven't heard it either.
W I ought to go back there and get those. That little back room is kind of junky because I brought things from _____, but I'm going back there to get them. Would you want me to stop now?

S If you'd like to stop we'll stop a while. Oh, we'll stop for a while and then give you a rest and that'll give you an opportunity to go back there and get those. Because I need to take some still pictures of you anyway. Now, tell me more. But those are his two favorites, those were the two favorites of Mr. Work's?
W I wouldn't say it like that. I think he looked mostly for the words that he liked. I would like sometimes for this whole thing, this Cantata "God of the Mountain" to be published. That's an entire ______, but these two parts that ______ published, were published, of course, they're separate. But in copyrighting them, I copyrighted the manuscript-the whole thing.

S I see.
W You know, I didn't have any idea of what it meant to copyright.

S Does Fred help you with any of this?
W No. And what Freddie says, and I think he' s kind a true, he says that he doesn't know that much about copyright law.

S Well, so you go to an expert.
W That is a law and it's...

S It is and she's right.
W ...Now, I'll tell you what I did. Hanson has about 8, Hanson has 6 separate choral numbers, some of the best that John did and ____ ____, and John sent a new version of _____ _____ down to have them two months before he went into the hospital the last time. I hadn't been able to effect that. I didn't get anything down. I have known that you also have the "Our Father".

S Mmmm. Which we sang. In fact, did we do this while I was here?
W Yeah.

S In fact, I remember he tried some of the verse with the chorus.
W And he did another version of it ____ ____, and then I've been in a _____ so long I think it's in ______.

S This is an incredibly _______.
W There are about 5 or 6 strong one.

S Was "I made My Vow to Him"? Or was that earlier?
W I believe that's in there. But Hanson has it. Hanson stopped publishing, Hanson stopped publicizing. I have tried to get the copyrights for that. You know what I mean, it was messy. Just a whole - and a book of ______.

S That Hanson has.
W Hanson has. It's just a messy procedure. Freddie tried to work with him and he really got disgusted because the letter that came back was stupid. The letters I wrote, I called up, John got a lawyer in New York-just the same thing. So I decided I was getting me a lawyer here-a copyright lawyer. We had a friend-a Doctor Reynolds who's on the board, but who was a friend of John's.

S On the Work Foundation Board?
W Right. But he was a friend of John's and John had been able to help him to get into ASCAP years ago. He was the Baptist Sunday School publisher down there. In fact this Sunday School publishing company had done quite a bit of John's _______.

S Vincenter(?), that's a pretty good company. They've done a lot of ...
W Quite a bit of music.

S Is Baptist located in Dallas?
W No, here in Nashville.

S Oh, in Nashville.
W But Dr. Reynolds has left there now, so that's that. And he took me on over to introduce me to this very fine company. That guy had my material a year and, of course, he said that he wrote them, but he didn't get a letter back from them. And then, the last thing he said to me was, "Well, Mrs. Work, your music is in the public domain." And I wanted to say, "You old fool. I know they're not in the public domain, so don't call me and tell me that", but I didn't want to argue.

S The lawyer said this.
W The lawyer.

S He didn't say why it was in the public domain
W I wouldn't ask him, because I knew he didn't know what he was talking about. I think he didn't know what he was talking about. So then, I just asked him how much I owed him. It was $150.00, so I paid him and got the music back and then I called Dr. Reynolds again and he said, "Mrs. Worth, of course it's not in the public domain. I'm going to look it up in my copyright books." Well, in a half hour he called me and said, "Mrs. Worth, I knew I was right. They are in the copyright book." I said, "I'm going to do what I told you I was going to do. I'm going to watch for each year of copyright endings and I'm going to renew, I can renew those things if they have not been published within a certain number of years."

S More than that, if they happen to come out by Hanson or some other person who might buy Hanson interest you should sort of have rights to any royalties or any benefits that accrues from it.
W Well they can't do it now because _____. So some of them I have copyrighted, but I've got to watch the January and see which one comes ____ _____ _____. You see, though, it's just messy. Of course, too, I had to ____ another book. The book worries me.

S The book of spirituals.
W The book of spirituals, right.

S Do you think that book is in the hands of Hanson?
W No. Crown had it.

S Oh, in Philadelphia?
W New York. Crown has it and Bonanza Book Company.

S And what do they say about that?
W Well, they said they're not ready to publish it. They're not publishing it.

S Can they hold on to it? If you ask for it to give to another publisher, can they.
W I guess I could get it back.

S Now, Ditto Presser did the book ...
W They did it, but they didn't publicize it. They did it in paperback.

S Who has it now, Crescendo?
W No. Crown.

S Oh, Crown has it.
W Crown or Book Goetlib or one or the other. But you see, I don't have a copyright on the book.

S Oh, you don't have that copyrighted.
W This is what happened. Presser said they wouldn't publish it. Crown said they would publish it. Presser sent it on to Crown. This is the ______.

S The actual title of this book is?
W "American Negro Songs".

S Now, was that the original title? And ___ Presser had the original manuscript of that book.
W No. Powell Soskin said there isn't.

S Aaah. You see, I didn't know that. When was that given to them?
W In 1940.

S How do you spell it?
W Soskin.

S And where were they?
W New York.

S And did Soskin have one printing or one issue?
W I don't know. That was during that period of time that we didn't have any money-no company would take it without money, so Rosenwall put the money up for that book. And then, I don't think John ever got any royalty out of that for I don't know how long. I can't tell you. It was a mess.

S But eventually Soskin to Presser, and then Presser-did you begin getting royalties?
W Presser didn't do... Yes, a little, then we got very much more. We did very well under Crown and book outlets.

S Presser traditionally isn't known to do hardly any publicity. That's one of their biggest problems.
W I know. They just didn't do it.

S Right. But when Crown at least took it
W I did get some money from them, but I haven't gotten any in the last year. Now the man at outlet told me that they would consider it. So I'm going to call him again. And writing doesn't do any good.

S No.
W I've learned that. ____ ___ probably told you that. They said, "Edith, don't write anybody, they don't even answer."

S You're right. You're certainly right.
W "You have to call".

S And it's even better if you go right there and sit in their office. You can't afford to do that, but...
W But anyhow, I'm going to call this man and ask him. And I think I'm going to tell him that the Black Research Institute would be interested in it, etc.

S That brings up another question. Now, with all of these...
W But do you know where the copyright was?

S Where?
W You see, John got mad with somebody and he would not give Crown the copyright because he was afraid that Crown was not going to-was going to do like Presser. So he thought he would wait a while to see what Presser did. So the copyright was jammed down in the files, and I didn't find it until a year after the copyright was out.

S In the meantime, Mr. Work had died.
W In the meantime, he died.

S And you had no way of knowing that this...
W I had no way, and I explained to the people in the copyright office. I begged them, I did everything, but they told me that they were sorry but there was nothing they could do. And then, I laid out the man at Crown and he said, "Mrs. Work, ordinarily the copyright is right there in the files and we just look through and check for copyright, but we didn't have the copyright, so we didn't check it." Julian told me, "That was a lie. They knew that. All they needed to have done was to check that. They should have checked it."

S Julian, this is Mr. Work's brother.
W Yes. Julian says, "They just didn't look. They were _____."

S Well, at least you had the persistence, but more than that you have to work with somebody who guided your hand to find that copyright. And in all places, it was shoved...
W Just holed up. You know, I

S Well, that's very spooky.
W He was depressed and he just stuck it in a file. He didn't even tell me.

S That's what I'm saying

END OF INTERVIEW