(;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[0.00]
PW[White]PB[Black]DT[2007-08-19]PC[The KGS Go Server at http://www.gokgs.com/]C[Unplugged [-\]: hello yithril
yukiisme [12k\]: hihi
yithril [1d\]: hello
Kireta [10k\]: Hello
xthsense [1k\]: hi
xthsense [1k\]: longest variation = 27 moves XD
yithril [1d\]: not going to be variation heavy this lecture
xthsense [1k\]: yeah
xthsense [1k\]: ic that lol
Unplugged [-\]: should i advertise the lecture ?
yithril [1d\]: sure why not
Unplugged [-\]: ok
xthsense [1k\]: 2 minutes! (countdown) XD
Rotwang [5k\]: Hi
inochi33 [9k\]: yeaaaa fuseki lesson
inochi33 [9k\]: finally
yithril [1d\]: ok lets start
HonFu [4k\]: haha ^^
xthsense [1k\]:  yithril [1d\]: buh? yithril [1d\]: is w on something? oddalot [12k\]: the internet? lol yithril
yithril [1d\]: the focus of this lecture is tada fuseki
yithril [1d\]: the one idea i'd like to stress
yithril [1d\]: is that there are many many options for us to choose from in the beginning of the game
yithril [1d\]: sadly there are a lot of bad options ;)
yithril [1d\]: but there are also good ones
yithril [1d\]: we will be discussing a very common opening to learn some fuseki principles and how to apply them in our games
yithril [1d\]: the greatest lesson you can learn from this lecture is to play your style and moves that are comfortable for you
]
;B[qd]
;W[dp]
;B[pp]
;W[dd]
;B[oc]C[Lecture on basic opening principles :

Focus of lecture: Fuseki Strategyyithril [1d\]: ok so
yithril [1d\]: lets take stock of th board
yithril [1d\]: black has built a shimari and has a star point stone
yithril [1d\]: white has two star point stones
yithril [1d\]: usually because w goes second he does not normally go for a moyo vs moyo strategy
yithril [1d\]: b is a move ahead of us
yithril [1d\]: however that doesn't mean it isnt playable ;)
yithril [1d\]: so next idea
yithril [1d\]: lets say we dont want to play moyo vs moyo as white
yithril [1d\]: we instead want to break b up before anything big gets going
yithril [1d\]: wheres a good move for w?  this question is for 9-10 kyu or below
Firebird [9k\]: R11
inochi33 [9k\]: r11
]
(;W[qj]LB[fc:G][ph:H][qh:A][cj:C][ql:B][qm:E][qn:D][fq:F]C[What is the meaning of r10?

What choices does black have now?  What does each mean?  Think in terms of development of all the black stones.inochi33 [9k\]: i just like r11 than the hoshhi
yithril [1d\]: i saw more games with r 10 than r 11
yithril [1d\]: but good idea
yithril [1d\]: this splitting move
ChemBoy613 [7k\]: wedge is strong move here
yithril [1d\]: prevents b from forming a connected shape on the right side
ChemBoy613 [7k\]: does black answer from the top or from the bottom/
Firebird [9k\]: R11 is silly, you're right
xthsense [1k\]: chem, huh?
yithril [1d\]: moving into our opponents shape before they can become strong is very big
yithril [1d\]: we're going to discuss that today chem ;)
yithril [1d\]: b has MANY options here
yithril [1d\]: call out some
HonFu [4k\]: r12
Kireta [10k\]: i like r12
ChemBoy613 [7k\]: R12 looks good
Firebird [9k\]: R8
yithril [1d\]: r12 is a stellar point
ChemBoy613 [7k\]: R8 also valid
HonFu [4k\]: c10
ChemBoy613 [7k\]: I think R12 is stronger
hidan18 [1k\]: most of teh pro games ive seen the answer is r12
inochi33 [9k\]: r6
Kireta [10k\]: r7
Firebird [9k\]: R7 maybe
ChemBoy613 [7k\]: tenuki always option, F3
ILOVEMJ [20k\]: c
yithril [1d\]: ok
Firebird [9k\]: Q11
ChemBoy613 [7k\]: F17 also
ILOVEMJ [20k\]: c10 is right
Firebird [9k\]: or rather Q12
inochi33 [9k\]: anywhere really its not really a forcing move
yithril [1d\]: okay
yithril [1d\]: lets discuss them
yithril [1d\]: okay now back to here
yithril [1d\]: lets do b and e ;)
bourbaki [1k\]: wait one sec
bourbaki [1k\]: could you talk about the placement of c8 versus c7?
bourbaki [1k\]: something that i don't really get to this day
yithril [1d\]: in fact ill do that now ;)
ChemBoy613 [7k\]: Hon Fun... if you know your joseki and think hard and read them will help you make good pincer choice
yithril [1d\]: so
xthsense [1k\]: i so want that in my info, kilroy
yithril [1d\]: now
yithril [1d\]: the next move
yithril [1d\]: is a move developed by one of my favorite pros
yithril [1d\]: Liu Xing
yithril [1d\]: he is great to study if you want to learn flexibility
Firebird [9k\]: yeah
yithril [1d\]: whew
yithril [1d\]: okay 10 more minutes
yithril [1d\]: last thing
tvirlip [7k\]: What B will do after F3 and white pincer?
xthsense [1k\]: lol
yithril [1d\]: okay its been an hour
yithril [1d\]: thats plenty ;)
yithril [1d\]: thank you all for watching
yithril [1d\]: hope you learned something
xthsense [1k\]: lol
ChemBoy613 [7k\]: thank you very much jon!
HonFu [4k\]: for sure ^^
Unplugged [-\]: thanks for the lecture, yithril
hidan18 [1k\]: thx
tvirlip [7k\]: Thanks a lot
Kireta [10k\]: thank you very much
TensaiFuji [5k\]: i came too late nooooooooooooo
HonFu [4k\]: thanks a lot!
xthsense [1k\]: thanks jon
Firebird [9k\]: i'll never know the answer to that invasion ...
yithril [1d\]: do tsumego
Firebird [9k\]: but thanks a lot 
yithril [1d\]: get out a go board
xthsense [1k\]:  xthsense [1k\]: http://www.umich.edu/~goclub/index.html - under resources, or view it offline, tensai
inochi33 [9k\]: hmmdoenload tensai
yithril [1d\]: and figure i tout
TensaiFuji [5k\]: ah, i see
ChemBoy613 [7k\]: firebird, attack and defence has some good 3-3 invasion joseki
ChemBoy613 [7k\]: go study
]
(;B[ql]TR[oc][qd]C[Why does black play this direction?  What is the difference between this move and...bourbaki [1k\]: sweet
yithril [1d\]: its the same kind of shape on the right
yithril [1d\]: now in modern go
yithril [1d\]: people started to develop this move
yithril [1d\]: it follows the principle of push your opponent into your strength
HonFu [4k\]: isnt the corner too open now?
yithril [1d\]: if we consider b's shimari to be strong
yithril [1d\]: which it is
yithril [1d\]: then we are pushing w in that direction to build the bottom
yithril [1d\]: the thing is
yithril [1d\]: much like ...
]
;W[qg]LB[qn:A]C[yithril [1d\]: after w makes a base
yithril [1d\]: b has a shape problem
yithril [1d\]: here
ChemBoy613 [7k\]: so black jumps to P8 to cover weakness?
yithril [1d\]: the idea of b doing this
HonFu [4k\]: how come?
]
(;B[jq]C[Why here instead of f3?]
;W[qq])
(;B[fq]C[yithril [1d\]: again
yithril [1d\]: as i said before
yithril [1d\]: if you dont want your opponent with big moyos
xthsense [1k\]: generally, yes
HonFu [4k\]: isnt h4 or k3 as well?
]
(;W[cn]C[bourbaki [1k\]: it is much easier to treat the 2 space high pincer lightly
]
(;B[jp]LB[qn:A]C[Black has a weakness at AViolence [?\]: to play fast
yithril [1d\]: is to try and build a moyo at the bottom
yithril [1d\]: and play very fast
yithril [1d\]: keep in mind
]
;W[]
;B[ph]C[yithril [1d\]: this move still exists
yithril [1d\]: to press white down
tvirlip [7k\]: why W doesn't simply play pincer after F3?
HonFu [4k\]: ah. and if white now invades, he helps black build his moyo
yithril [1d\]: possible ;)
])
(;B[dr]
;W[cq]
;B[iq]))
(;W[ip]C[yithril [1d\]: break them up
ChemBoy613 [7k\]: right... two space high is normaly moyo breaking pincer
yithril [1d\]: but be prepared for the repurcussions
bourbaki [1k\]: this looks a bit dangerous
HonFu [4k\]: is this true?
xthsense [1k\]: is what true?
HonFu [4k\]: j4 moyo breaking?
yithril [1d\]: well if b plays in this area
Slarty [-\]: high splitting
yithril [1d\]: its higher
yithril [1d\]: already closer ot the center
]
;B[fo]C[HonFu [4k\]: and other high pincers?
]
;W[dn]C[xthsense [1k\]: and its farther from f3 
]
;B[kp]C[yithril [1d\]: lets say we play like this
Slarty [-\]: aren't as good shape, normally
xthsense [1k\]: with a good amount of pressure
HonFu [4k\]: never know what pincer to choose
bourbaki [1k\]: it has good access to the center, and it is far away from black stones and therefore hard to kill
]))
(;B[ph]LB[jp:A]
;W[qh]
;B[pj]
;W[pi]
;B[oi]
;W[qi]
;B[pk]
;W[oh]
;B[ni]
(;W[og]
;B[jp])
(;W[jq]
;B[og]
;W[re])))
(;B[qh]LB[qf:A]C[This move?yithril [1d\]: this move makes a lot of sense
yithril [1d\]: it keeps with the idea of corners then sides.  
yithril [1d\]: We build strength in the corner
yithril [1d\]: i.e. the shimari
yithril [1d\]: then we extend from it
yithril [1d\]: this extension has a threat to it
yithril [1d\]: if w does noting
yithril [1d\]: so white has to do something
yithril [1d\]: theres two moves i wanted to discuss here
ChemBoy613 [7k\]: you have to come back and fix
Violence [?\]: yeah
bourbaki [1k\]: perhaps for those afraid of playing r5 as black it would be worthwhile to see what happens if white ignores r5?
yithril [1d\]: now
HonFu [4k\]: but is it good to let white keep blacks corner small like this?
yithril [1d\]: in this diagram
]
(;W[qn]LB[qf:A]C[What's the difference between this move and r7?yithril [1d\]: here
yithril [1d\]: now im not going to go into the many many many josekis that there are around here
yithril [1d\]: we're going to be discussing the ideas
yithril [1d\]: lets move on to this one
ChemBoy613 [7k\]: invade?
ChemBoy613 [7k\]: or O4?
Firebird [9k\]: universal answer: R8
yithril [1d\]: whats w's idea here?
ChemBoy613 [7k\]: extend and approach the corner at the same time
ChemBoy613 [7k\]: dual-purpose move
yithril [1d\]: partially
yithril [1d\]: thats no tall
Firebird [9k\]: ... at least whenever i tried so far
Shuang [4k\]: also to pressure
xthsense [1k\]: i dont want to have black play r5 on me. XD
yithril [1d\]: all good responses
yithril [1d\]: theres one more idea
hidan18 [1k\]: lol
HonFu [4k\]: r8 would trouble me
yithril [1d\]: keep in mind
yithril [1d\]: black has a weak spot
Kernel [6k\]: hrm
yithril [1d\]: this point is invadable later
hidan18 [1k\]: r8 is exchange
yithril [1d\]: the prerequisite
ChemBoy613 [7k\]: this takes away R5 beacuse the kick induces good shape for white
yithril [1d\]: to invade here is that the r10 white group is safe
yithril [1d\]: which leads me to another good principle
xthsense [1k\]: chem, i was kidding.
hidan18 [1k\]: lol
yithril [1d\]: Before we invade, we must make sure surrounding groups are safe
HonFu [4k\]: always?
yithril [1d\]: if we invade before our nearby groups are stabilized, then we run the risk of our invasion damaging our position all around
xthsense [1k\]: cause you dont want to kill yourself.
yithril [1d\]: id say thats almost an ironclad principle
HonFu [4k\]: oh #^^#
yithril [1d\]: its extremely important
xthsense [1k\]: look at yithril's old games to see his opponents kill himself
xthsense [1k\]: he's frustrated by such play
xthsense [1k\]: XD
hidan18 [1k\]: ☺
xthsense [1k\]: same with me too
yithril [1d\]: so here
yithril [1d\]: w goes for more space
yithril [1d\]: if he can stabilize
yithril [1d\]: then he can come in at b's weak spot
yithril [1d\]: get the idea?
Kernel [6k\]: yeah
yithril [1d\]:  various moves here
xthsense [1k\]: lol
yithril [1d\]: but do we at least understand the principle of this move?
HonFu [4k\]: yes
Firebird [9k\]: yes
ChemBoy613 [7k\]: yes
]
(;B[mq]C[Firebird [9k\]: yeah, but now turn the "if" to a "when" ...
HonFu [4k\]: but finally he will have to play Q8, no? isnt that gote then
HonFu [4k\]: ?
ChemBoy613 [7k\]: what about O4?
ChemBoy613 [7k\]: O4 looks good for black
yithril [1d\]: let me show you something
yithril [1d\]: then well get back to that
yithril [1d\]: if we do this
yithril [1d\]: ok
yithril [1d\]: didnt want to get bogged down
yithril [1d\]: in  variations
]
(;W[rp]
(;B[ql]
;W[on]
;B[pk]
(;W[pq]
;B[oq]
;W[qq]
;B[oo]
;W[nn]
;B[jq])
(;W[qm]
;B[rk]
;W[oq]
;B[op]
;W[pq]
;B[nq]
;W[qp]
;B[jq])
(;W[oq]
;B[op]
;W[pq]
;B[qp]
;W[qq]
;B[ro]))
(;B[qq]
;W[pl]C[yithril [1d\]: and if we were to play like this
yithril [1d\]: then b is bigger
yithril [1d\]: than in the other diagram
xthsense [1k\]: n3 is ok because white cant invade corner
yithril [1d\]: because b is bigger it offsets what white gets
HonFu [4k\]: because he has to guard his own extension?
ChemBoy613 [7k\]: what if white elects to sansan instead to slide?
]))
(;W[qq]C[yithril [1d\]: good question
]
(;B[qp]C[yithril [1d\]: b blocks this way
]
;W[pq]C[yithril [1d\]: b's next move?
HonFu [4k\]: p4
HonFu [4k\]: for safety?
Firebird [9k\]: P3 should be ok
ChemBoy613 [7k\]: isn't P4 only needed without N3?
ChemBoy613 [7k\]: also life and death with ishida/davies good book
]
(;B[oq]C[Rotwang [5k\]: :P
yithril [1d\]: cut?
]
(;W[or]C[khpark129 [5k\]: cut is very big
ChemBoy613 [7k\]: okies I didn't read out the thane :)
]
(;B[nr]
;W[op]
;B[nq]
;W[rp]
;B[ro]C[ChemBoy613 [7k\]: yeah black dies :S
yithril [1d\]: if b plays this where does w play?
ChemBoy613 [7k\]: Q5
yithril [1d\]: lower kyu players
yithril [1d\]: agh
Rotwang [5k\]: s4
yithril [1d\]: heheh
xthsense [1k\]: lol
KattIsKewl [11k?\]: sup guys
]
;W[po]
;B[qo]
;W[rn]C[yithril [1d\]: oops\\
ChemBoy613 [7k\]: XD
Firebird [9k\]: ok, i wouldn't play the double hane ..but the cut still keeps killing me ;)
])
(;B[nq]C[yithril [1d\]: tis one?
Firebird [9k\]: O2 yes
Firebird [9k\]: it's right
yithril [1d\]: yeah there is a cut
HonFu [4k\]: but white can connect now, no?
yithril [1d\]: do more tsumego so you dont die ;)
xthsense [1k\]: lol
HonFu [4k\]: ^^
inochi33 [9k\]: if b had a stone a t topleft then hane would be fine cuz ladder doesn't work
khpark129 [5k\]: lol
]))
(;W[op]C[yithril [1d\]: here?
Firebird [9k\]: i'd play nobe to O3
ChemBoy613 [7k\]: no in different circumstances I think he meants
hidan18 [1k\]: he means o3 instead of o2
KattIsKewl [11k?\]: black should have P4
Firebird [9k\]: after white hane
Firebird [9k\]: at P2
]))
(;B[op]C[yithril [1d\]: p4 is the move
yithril [1d\]: not the hane
KattIsKewl [11k?\]: what is this demo for?
yithril [1d\]: lecture
ChemBoy613 [7k\]: orthodox fuseki lecture
xthsense [1k\]: fuseki
]
;W[oq]
(;B[rp]
;W[nq]
;B[np]
;W[mr]
;B[lq]
;W[lr]
;B[kq]
(;W[kr])
(;W[]
;B[kr]LB[rr:A]))
(;B[rq]
;W[rr]
;B[rp]
;W[nq]
;B[np]
;W[mr]
;B[lq]
;W[lr]
;B[kq]
;W[pl])))
(;B[pq]C[yithril [1d\]: i do not want to see this
xthsense [1k\]: same
HonFu [4k\]: ^^
xthsense [1k\]: lol
yithril [1d\]: if this comes in your mind
yithril [1d\]: picture something bad
xthsense [1k\]: lol
ChemBoy613 [7k\]: R4 is basically automatic for me here
yithril [1d\]: and hopefully you'll associate bad things with this move
]
;W[qp]
;B[po]
;W[qo]C[Violence [?\]: ew
ChemBoy613 [7k\]: this is inefficent for black and makes thins too easy for white
bourbaki [1k\]: make it stop
yithril [1d\]: 3 space wall
ChemBoy613 [7k\]: bad shape
xthsense [1k\]: lol
hidan18 [1k\]: lol
yithril [1d\]: 2..spac.e...jump
yithril [1d\]: ugh
HonFu [4k\]: haha ^^
inochi33 [9k\]: ichi ni san yon GO! hehe
ChemBoy613 [7k\]: I'd feel the same ay!
yithril [1d\]: and w gets a good amount of points
])))
(;B[ql]C[yithril [1d\]: we'll go over this bad boy in a sec
]
;W[on]
;B[nq]
;W[pk]
;B[rp]
;W[pl]C[One possible continuation])
(;B[nq]C[yithril [1d\]: this is the on ei want
yithril [1d\]: ok
]
;W[rp]C[yithril [1d\]: lets say w slides into the corner
yithril [1d\]: if b defends the corner
]
(;B[qq]
;W[pl]TR[qj][pl][qn][rp]C[Ideal for white soyithril [1d\]: w's shape is beautifully efficient here
HonFu [4k\]: isnt this a bit many moves at one side?
yithril [1d\]: no
xthsense [1k\]: id like o3 at n3 now.
ChemBoy613 [7k\]: doesn't this also induce P12?
yithril [1d\]: not for what each stone is doing
Firebird [9k\]: this is all right, the problem is, black never plays along like that ;)
yithril [1d\]: btw xthesense had a good idea
])
(;B[ql]
;W[on]
;B[pk]
;W[qq]
;B[kq])))
(;W[qm]TR[qj][qm]C[yithril [1d\]: here
yithril [1d\]: and
yithril [1d\]: two stones with two spaces in between on the third line is a basic shape to create a base for our stones
Firebird [9k\]: why not Q6, wouldn't it be easier to stay connected that way?
xthsense [1k\]: and black can take a large corner.
Violence [?\]: I think it's more that you'd lose alot of territory
ChemBoy613 [7k\]: this is very solid
Violence [?\]: after R6ish stuff
bourbaki [1k\]: well the point is it's not more or less conneted than r6
yithril [1d\]: ok so i digress
Violence [?\]: -Guo Juan
yithril [1d\]: here though
yithril [1d\]: b can still pressure white
Firebird [9k\]: ok, thanks for the digression
Firebird [9k\]: ;)
yithril [1d\]: and we did this one
yithril [1d\]: now
]
(;B[qo]C[yithril [1d\]: very big move
ChemBoy613 [7k\]: my instict was to play here as well
yithril [1d\]: there were games
xthsense [1k\]: r3 hurts your stones
yithril [1d\]: this move
yithril [1d\]: closes the door to the corner
yithril [1d\]: and squeezes w
]
(;W[om]C[ChemBoy613 [7k\]: I REALLY like R5 as black
HonFu [4k\]: but it makes n3 posible, right?
]
(;B[oh])
(;B[pl]
;W[pm]
;B[oh]C[Violence [?\]: I like O4 better than P12...
Shuang [4k\]: r5 seems
Shuang [4k\]: confined
xthsense [1k\]: aiming at s9 now
ChemBoy613 [7k\]: nothing wrong with being solid!
yithril [1d\]: b can keep up the pressure
yithril [1d\]: and build the top
]))
(;W[mq]C[yithril [1d\]: also fyi
yithril [1d\]: i found tons of games like this
Violence [?\]: Wow
ChemBoy613 [7k\]: can B pincer here?
yithril [1d\]: where w plays further away from the corner
]
;B[oq]
;W[jq]
;B[fc]C[yithril [1d\]: the games went like this
HonFu [4k\]: I would be afraid with black to play r5
ChemBoy613 [7k\]: black looks overconcentrated
HonFu [4k\]: because of this
yithril [1d\]: mm
Shuang [4k\]: yea
Shuang [4k\]: me too
yithril [1d\]: this is not a case of overconcetration chemboy
yithril [1d\]: its a case of shape and safety
yithril [1d\]: personally i think b is a bit better but its dependant on style
]
;W[cf]
;B[id]
;W[cn]
;B[pl]
;W[ql]
;B[pj]
;W[pk]
;B[ok]
;W[qk]
;B[pi]
;W[ol]
;B[nk]
;W[om]
;B[ig])
(;W[]C[yithril [1d\]: many things
yithril [1d\]: first
yithril [1d\]: there is a sequence that is good to know here
Shuang [4k\]: positions end up about equal
xthsense [1k\]: lol, true, violence
]
(;B[pl]C[xthsense [1k\]: want to give us a chance to guess
]
;W[ql]
;B[pj]
;W[pk]
;B[ok]C[xthsense [1k\]: ILOVEMJ, Yithril is probably not doing this out of a book.
]
;W[qk]
;B[pi]LB[jd:A]C[Shuang [4k\]: yea
ILOVEMJ [20k\]: No, this is all book stuff
Shuang [4k\]: off experience
yithril [1d\]: i thought you guys would've censored him by now?
yithril [1d\]: i know i did
ILOVEMJ [20k\]: Common sense, you mean
ILOVEMJ [20k\]: ?
ChemBoy613 [7k\]: I censored ILOVEMJ
bourbaki [1k\]: i have :)
HonFu [4k\]: me too ^^
Shuang [4k\]: after the admin
xthsense [1k\]: i quote:  xthsense: i feel sorry i cant censor ppl in this room cause i've been asked to help watch it.
Shuang [4k\]: i uncensored
xthsense [1k\]: im watching a death god's tale
yithril [1d\]: well he can think what he wants
hidan18 [1k\]: :o
yithril [1d\]: i definitely know this ;):
Shuang [4k\]: hehe
xthsense [1k\]: and ILOVEMJ is in the room, so...
Kernel [6k\]: poor xth
yithril [1d\]: if b has a stone at A
Violence [?\]: Yithril doesn't need the book, he won 6-0 in the US Open
ChemBoy613 [7k\]: albert, do you have sub-admin privledges?
xthsense [1k\]: no
Unplugged [-\]: ilovemj, next time, u get a ban
Violence [?\]: Because Yithril's a dirty sandbagger >_>
xthsense [1k\]: blaire asked me to watch the room
Unplugged [-\]: be warned
xthsense [1k\]: jons not sandagging
ChemBoy613 [7k\]: ok, thanks albert
ChemBoy613 [7k\]: we aprecciated it
bourbaki [1k\]: so if white did ignore, black would probably wait and develop on top or bottom edge?
yithril [1d\]: then there's big potential again
yithril [1d\]: yes
yithril [1d\]: that seems to be the strategy
yithril [1d\]: b waits
Violence [?\]: But he knows what he's talking about.
yithril [1d\]: and then picks wether he wants to press down
yithril [1d\]: or just out right attack
])
(;B[pk]C[yithril [1d\]: pressing down
yithril [1d\]: on white
yithril [1d\]: alternately
]
;W[qk]
;B[pm]
;W[pl]
;B[ol]
;W[ql]C[ILOVEMJ [20k\]: yithril, which book are you doing this out of?
]
;B[pn]LB[jp:A]C[HonFu [4k\]: already now, or later?
ILOVEMJ [20k\]: So I can follow along?
yithril [1d\]: if b can get a stone at A
yithril [1d\]: then pressing white down liek this
yithril [1d\]: could result in big potential
])))
(;B[mq]C[yithril [1d\]: like this
yithril [1d\]: older japanese games
yithril [1d\]: where do you think w played next?
Firebird [9k\]: R3
HonFu [4k\]: s4
yithril [1d\]: s4 correct
]
;W[rp]C[ChemBoy613 [7k\]: R3 or R4 or S4 all valid
yithril [1d\]: w extends out and now his group is quite comfortable
yithril [1d\]: remember the magic number is 6
ChemBoy613 [7k\]: can W tenuki and play something bigger?
xthsense [1k\]: not really, chemboy
]))
(;W[]
;B[ql]C[yithril [1d\]: ooops
HonFu [4k\]: ^^
yithril [1d\]: this stone is weak with no base
])
(;W[pn]C[yithril [1d\]: this?
Firebird [9k\]: yes
Violence [?\]: But you lose territory like that
yithril [1d\]: it might be possible but you have a gigantic hole
ChemBoy613 [7k\]: this shape is way way too thin
Firebird [9k\]: hmm, ok
yithril [1d\]: difference is this is high
yithril [1d\]: so the door is open
yithril [1d\]: you dont have a third line closing move on the other side
]))
(;B[fq]C[F3 is interesting, what is the meaning?yithril [1d\]: he played this
yithril [1d\]: what is the meaning?
Slarty [-\]: probe
HonFu [4k\]: tempo?
tvirlip [7k\]: Well, isn't it just normal classic way of playing?
yithril [1d\]: probe, exactly
Firebird [9k\]: trys to develop lower side
tvirlip [7k\]: You can approach, you approach.
ChemBoy613 [7k\]: wall joseki seems appropriate in response here?
]
(;W[cn]C[yithril [1d\]: if w ansers like this
]
(;B[ql]
;W[qg]
;B[jp])
(;B[qm]
(;W[qg]
;B[jp]C[yithril [1d\]: w doesnt have a chance to break up our moyo
ChemBoy613 [7k\]: B gets a framework
ChemBoy613 [7k\]: nice for black
yithril [1d\]: because he played c 6 instead of j4.  
yithril [1d\]: Granted
yithril [1d\]: w could pincer
HonFu [4k\]: so r13 is really necessary?
yithril [1d\]: instead of c6
HonFu [4k\]: always?
yithril [1d\]: theres no law against it
xthsense [1k\]: c3 still there too
yithril [1d\]: making a base for your stones is another ironclad principle
yithril [1d\]: its the one that take the most discipline
Firebird [9k\]: what about the pincer in response to the probe?
])
(;W[ip]
;B[qh]C[yithril [1d\]: do you like this?
HonFu [4k\]: not really
xthsense [1k\]: lol
HonFu [4k\]: ^^
])))
(;W[hq]C[yithril [1d\]: entirely possible firebird
Violence [?\]: different game.
yithril [1d\]: no law against it
yithril [1d\]: different game
]))
(;B[qm]LB[ql:A]C[What is the difference between this move and A?yithril [1d\]: this move is the same idea
xthsense [1k\]: lol chem, joseki is not everything XD
yithril [1d\]: whats the difference between this and A, this is a question for 9 kyu and below
HonFu [4k\]: I lose when I study joseki
HonFu [4k\]: always
xthsense [1k\]: yes
xthsense [1k\]: as you should XD
HonFu [4k\]: haha ^^
ChemBoy613 [7k\]: "if you beak joseki you better have a good reason to" - the 1d I played today here at club
Firebird [9k\]: doesn't put as much pressure on the white stone, but is better shape
yithril [1d\]: good
xthsense [1k\]: who was it, chem?
]
;W[qg]C[ChemBoy613 [7k\]: I only lost by 25 :'(
xthsense [1k\]: lol
Slarty [-\]: chem, you know joseki but lack opening principles to make these skills really shine...
]
(;B[fq]C[yithril [1d\]: however if b play shere
kilroy [2d\]: is I didn't know it a good reason?
ChemBoy613 [7k\]: jerry from new zlealand
]
(;W[cn]
;B[jp])
(;W[ip]C[inochi33 [9k\]: i thnk thats an 11k question
yithril [1d\]: white will play some kind of moyo breaking pincer
]))
(;B[jq]C[hidan18 [1k\]: lol
yithril [1d\]: so oftentimes b will extend to just here
xthsense [1k\]: lol
ChemBoy613 [7k\]: studying slarty :D  so hopefully will get stronger
]))
(;B[cn]
(;W[cl])
(;W[fq]
;B[bp]
;W[cq]
;B[ck]))
(;B[cj]C[Why would black play here?yithril [1d\]: this is also a good move
bourbaki [1k\]: were you going to talk about black playing r8 right away?
ChemBoy613 [7k\]: counterwedge?
yithril [1d\]: yeah
Firebird [9k\]: erm, what about the invasion after R6 at R8?
hidan18 [1k\]: ☺
Firebird [9k\]: or do we do that later?
yithril [1d\]: be patient ;)
Firebird [9k\]: ok
ChemBoy613 [7k\]: he means R8 after R6 ;)
HonFu [4k\]: ^^ yeah, I also like to know
HonFu [4k\]: later okay ^^
yithril [1d\]: this is a counter wedge
yithril [1d\]: the pros that played it
Firebird [9k\]: ok, i'll learn the numbers right after that lectures ;)
yithril [1d\]: i notice are the types that dont like their opponents to form any type of moyo
yithril [1d\]: btw these lectures are available for download 
inochi33 [9k\]: thats me
xthsense [1k\]: lol
yithril [1d\]: so you can download them and review at your leisure
Shiny [?\]: where?
xthsense [1k\]: http://www.umich.edu/~goclub/index.html 
yithril [1d\]: under resources
Shiny [?\]: ah, thanks
xthsense [1k\]: ann arbor's go club website
xthsense [1k\]: XD
]
(;W[qg]C[yithril [1d\]: this was a popular move
khpark129 [5k\]: gg
ChemBoy613 [7k\]: oh wow the site got updated, thanks albert
yithril [1d\]: what would be the meaning of white doing this?
HonFu [4k\]: counter the corner influence
Rotwang [5k\]: nullifying the himari's potential for moyo?
yithril [1d\]: good answer
yithril [1d\]: and?
Rotwang [5k\]: getting a base
bourbaki [1k\]: well white has nothing on the left edge as big as black playing r12
yithril [1d\]: excellent
yithril [1d\]: we settle down our side group
yithril [1d\]: to lessen the potential for development from the shimari
yithril [1d\]: and to settle our group down
yithril [1d\]: its a calm way to play
])
(;W[nq]C[yithril [1d\]: i also found this itneresting moe
yithril [1d\]: *move
]
;B[qn]
;W[qg]
;B[pr]C[yithril [1d\]: the game went like this
yithril [1d\]: w's idea
]
;W[cm]
;B[cg]C[ChemBoy613 [7k\]: white needs L3?
]
;W[kp]C[yithril [1d\]: is to build the bottom
]))
(;B[cf]C[yithril [1d\]: b can also play here
ChemBoy613 [7k\]: wall joseki tvirlip, seems to make sense
tvirlip [7k\]: Q4 wants extension, isn't it?
]
(;W[fc]C[yithril [1d\]: the quieter players
Slarty [-\]: uh you mean invade corner joseki right?
HonFu [4k\]: so white cant build a single strategic unity,?
Firebird [9k\]: sceaming for C6 kind of ...
ChemBoy613 [7k\]: thought the moyo would be more useful? :S
]
;B[bd]
;W[cc]
;B[ci]C[Slarty [-\]: it hurts Q4 and W already has R10
yithril [1d\]: because of the marked stone black would like to settle this group as cleanly as possible
])
(;W[ch]C[This pincer works well with the D4 stone.  yithril [1d\]: however
yithril [1d\]: since d4 is there
yithril [1d\]: lets use it
HonFu [4k\]: f17?
yithril [1d\]: w will pincer b
yithril [1d\]: and now b has a very interesting move
yithril [1d\]: where is it?
inochi33 [9k\]: c10
ChemBoy613 [7k\]: F17?
HonFu [4k\]: f17 ..? hmm ...
tvirlip [7k\]: C6
xthsense [1k\]: wow lots of ppl watching
yithril [1d\]: yes c6 ;)
ChemBoy613 [7k\]: really?  pushing from behind is bad? ;)
]
(;B[cc]TR[dp]C[yithril [1d\]: first
yithril [1d\]: lets look at some stuff
yithril [1d\]: if b invades the corner
yithril [1d\]: b will be taking territory
Firebird [9k\]: horrible
yithril [1d\]: and w will have influence
yithril [1d\]: w already as an influence stone on the bottom
yithril [1d\]: here
yithril [1d\]: so influence at the top
yithril [1d\]: compliments the stone at the bottom
ChemBoy613 [7k\]: I think this is bad direction though, white's influnce becomes too strong
]
(;W[cd]C[Slarty [-\]: low for B
yithril [1d\]: w will cut b
]
;B[dc]
;W[ed]
;B[bd]C[ChemBoy613 [7k\]: thickness facing wrong direction and gote :'(
yithril [1d\]: im assuming everyone knows this sequence or is at least familiar?
TensaiFuji [5k\]: im too late for the lesson, dang
]
;W[be]
;B[bc]
;W[ce]C[HonFu [4k\]: chem - I didnt know those things as a 7k ^_°
]
;B[fc]
;W[jp]TR[cl][cm][cn]C[yithril [1d\]: w will take the high point at the bottom
inochi33 [9k\]: oh heys on it
yithril [1d\]: now d4 is super efficient
inochi33 [9k\]: he's*
yithril [1d\]: it got to extend to k4
ChemBoy613 [7k\]: this is too nice for white
yithril [1d\]: and the other extension
yithril [1d\]: towards this direction
HonFu [4k\]: really ...
xthsense [1k\]: http://www.umich.edu/~goclub/index.html - under resources, or view it offline, tensai
ChemBoy613 [7k\]: game looks tough for black
yithril [1d\]: has monstrous influence
yithril [1d\]: good for w
])
(;W[dc]C[yithril [1d\]: i dont want to see this
xthsense [1k\]: lol
HonFu [4k\]: ^^
]))
(;B[cn]C[yithril [1d\]: so b will play here
ChemBoy613 [7k\]: yes now this joseki seems appropreiate
]
(;W[fq]C[yithril [1d\]: if w answers like so
]
;B[ef]
;W[fd]
;B[di]
;W[dh]
;B[eh]
;W[ci]
;B[dj]C[yithril [1d\]: one possible answer
]
;W[cj]
;B[dk]
;W[cl]C[yithril [1d\]: the two
yithril [1d\]: we have a stone at c6
yithril [1d\]: waiting to cover w
]
;B[dl]C[tvirlip [7k\]: very good for B
yithril [1d\]: b will happily make himself extremely thick
HonFu [4k\]: nice
])
(;W[cl]
;B[fc]
;W[df]
;B[fq]
;W[dn]
;B[jd]
;W[ce]
;B[jp]
;W[co]))
(;B[ef]
;W[fd]
;B[di]C[yithril [1d\]: whats important here
]
;W[dh]
;B[eh]
;W[ci]
;B[dj]
;W[cj]
;B[dk]
;W[cl]C[yithril [1d\]: is that when we compare
]
;B[dl]C[tvirlip [7k\]: W corners are inefficient
yithril [1d\]: in this case
yithril [1d\]: without the c6 stone
yithril [1d\]: this move is just plain bad
]
;W[cm])))
(;B[fc]
(;W[cf]
(;B[qh]
;W[qm]
;B[qo])
(;B[db]
;W[cc]
;B[ic]
;W[qm]
;B[nq]
;W[fq]))
(;W[df]
;B[id]
;W[qm])))
(;W[dj]C[HonFu [4k\]: Do pros do it?
yithril [1d\]: w plays a sanrensei (three linked star points) on the left side
yithril [1d\]: yes
bourbaki [1k\]: for sure
Shuang [4k\]: but can't black limit white expansion
yithril [1d\]: all these positions you will see
Shuang [4k\]: with k4
yithril [1d\]: are from pro games
yithril [1d\]: some moves are less popular than others though
]
(;B[pj]C[yithril [1d\]: so 's next move is oftentimes here
yithril [1d\]: to link all of his stones together on the right side
yithril [1d\]: now that we have two moyos facing each other
yithril [1d\]: its time to play to stake out the borders on the sides
yithril [1d\]: back to here
yithril [1d\]: now keeping with the idea of not letting b get a big moyo
HonFu [4k\]: what with m3 after the kakari?
]
(;W[nq]C[ILOVEMJ [20k\]: A lecture on fuseki by a 1d?  What a joke
yithril [1d\]: white can play this approach move
ILOVEMJ [20k\]: How about a teaching game with me to show your credibility?
hidan18 [1k\]: ?
bourbaki [1k\]: later...
]
(;B[pn]C[Shuang [4k\]: ...
Kireta [10k\]: if you don't like it then leave
yithril [1d\]: black continues to build his moyo
Unplugged [-\]: IloveMj, please ... 
ILOVEMJ [20k\]: I'll show you guys what fuseki really is
Shiny [?\]: the amount of trolls on kgs is endless
]
;W[jp]C[ChemBoy613 [7k\]: ILOVEMJ - first of all, I'm sure of his strength, secondly this is in my room and you can't talk like this
Shuang [4k\]: i'll show u what censor button does
Shuang [4k\]: lol
xthsense [1k\]: please continue, yithril
yithril [1d\]: and white builds the bottom
ILOVEMJ [20k\]: Yes...please.
yithril [1d\]: however we dont have to play like this
yithril [1d\]: if ur okay with your opponent having a big moyo
yithril [1d\]: i.e. ur good at sabaki and invading
yithril [1d\]: then go ahead
ILOVEMJ [20k\]: Is this the kifu for a 23k game or something?
ILOVEMJ [20k\]: I must be lost
yithril [1d\]: but i remember when i was around 10 kyu
yithril [1d\]: id hate when my opponent had anything huge
yithril [1d\]: it looked to scaryto go in
yithril [1d\]: *too
]
;B[fc]
;W[jd]
;B[cc])
(;B[kp]C[Firebird [9k\]: i can second that ;)
yithril [1d\]: in such cases
yithril [1d\]: we can think about high pincer moves
yithril [1d\]: that break up the potential of large scale moyos
])
(;B[lq]C[yithril [1d\]: this one?
HonFu [4k\]: yeah
yithril [1d\]: possible
yithril [1d\]: if w invades the 3,3
HonFu [4k\]: I would be afraid with white that he tries to seal me into the corner
]
;W[no]C[yithril [1d\]: if ur afraid of being sealed jump out
HonFu [4k\]: hmm ... also true #^^# 
]))
(;W[jp]
(;B[fd]
;W[df]
;B[jd]
;W[hd]
;B[jf])
(;B[id]
;W[nq]
;B[np]
;W[op]
;B[oo]
;W[oq]
;B[po]
;W[pq]
;B[qq]
;W[qr]
;B[rr])))
(;B[fq]
;W[dn]
;B[dr]
;W[cq]
;B[iq]
;W[qn]))
(;W[qi]C[firstaid [-\]: why r11?
hidan18 [1k\]: r10- r11
yithril [1d\]: r 11 is possible
yithril [1d\]: right idea
Kireta [10k\]: i would go with r10
hidan18 [1k\]: somwhere there
]))